Can someone explain positives and negatives of a bushing die? Beyon the cost factor

And I noticed they come with an expander button. Wouldn't the expander be dragged thru the just sized neck on the way out....defeating the bushing sizing that was just completed?

The expander ball is for the inside of the case neck; the bushing sizes the outside of the case neck.

Use of a bushing die presumes a uniform neck thickness and knowledge of the neck dimension of the chamber.

Generally, the effort of neck turning is unnecessary on a 'deer rifle', but it might pay big dividends on prairie dog or 'chuck rifle.

I use a Redding bushing die setup for my .243 Ackley Improved w/.270" neck (the SAAMI spec for a .243 Win. neck OD is .276".

George

George,

Sooooo does that mean you have to neck turn for the bushing die to truly be effective?

When necking down and or moving the shoulder back the bushings present minimum verticle thruss force. Often trying to accomplish this with a one step forming die can crush (mushroom) the case at or near the body shoulder junction.It also prevents the brass from folding in on itself or creasing.
They are also very usefull in step necking;like going from a 30-06 to a 25-06.

I neck turn ALL my brass no matter what caliber for the simple reason of the accuracy potential of an equal bullet release...doesn't matter if it is a factory oversized chamber or one I cut. I chamfer the flash holes and uniform the primer pockets for the same reasons. These operations only take one time through the process.

I use FL bushing dies because I have several calibers using one size case...i.e,...22 BR, 6mmBR, 6.5 BR, 17 Rem through 6mm on the 222/223 case, 22 through 358 WIN on the 308 Win case and 25 through 338 on the 30-06 case. I just change bushings when I'm reloading for those particular calibers. Plus I'm always interested in doing new chambering so having one die body that fits several calibers saves me money that I spend on other goodies.

I also use Redding Comp Shell Holders to maintain minimum headspace.

I have a lot of wildcats that don't have a bushing die per se but it try to match the case to a particular bushing die that is available.

If I ever acquire a CNC lathe and mill I will turn some of my non-bushing dies into bushing dies just for kicks.

Economy is a system wide function...the die cost is only one part of it...a small part.

Luck

How much a typical expander ball leads to neck distortion is somewhat dependant on the quality of the neck and the amount it gets reduced in the sizer. If the neck is sized way down and then expanded back with a ball it is quite likely the neck's thin or soft parts will expand sideways and effectively 'bend' the neck.

A bushing sizer works great for tight neck chambers when all cases have been uniformly thinned for a snug fit. A bushing then leaves the necks right after sizing without an expander.

Factory chambers are so large that turning necks past a modest amount simply makes a poor fit worse. For them, a bushing sizer only moves any thickness varitation inside and that makes for slightly varing bullet grip.

Perhaps the best solutions for factory chambers is to first skim turn 60-80% of the necks to remove any gross thickness variations. Then resize with either a Lee Collet Neck Sizer OR a bushing die that reduces the necks only slightly smaller than the expander. That will allow the expander to uniform the insides a minimum amount and should produce some straight necks.

Personally, I prefer the simplicity and very good results I get with Lee's neck dies.

IF/when I need to "FL" size I just use a body die along with the Lee neck sizer and still get very good necks with a minimum of fuss.

quote:

If the neck is sized way down and then expanded back with a ball it is quite likely the neck's thin or soft parts will expand sideways and effectively 'bend' the neck.

Some of the bushings (Redding) do not have much of a chamfer. If used as is on a case that has beeen fired in a generous chamber they may push the neck off center as the neck is reduce in diameter. The edge of the case mouth has to jump over the near sharp edge opening of the bushing.

I like to use the bushing dies to neck size cases for which dies are hard to find. A short 7/8-14 bushing die will neck size almost any thing from a 17 Remington to a .338.

A custom bushing die would allow you to go up to even larger calibers.

When I am using cases in the same rifle (such as benchrest) I use a Wilson bushing die because the reloading process is so simple and exact. I can size the neck to give just a minimum grip on the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
How much a typical expander ball leads to neck distortion is somewhat dependant on the quality of the neck and the amount it gets reduced in the sizer. If the neck is sized way down and then expanded back with a ball it is quite likely the neck's thin or soft parts will expand sideways and effectively 'bend' the neck.

A bushing sizer works great for tight neck chambers when all cases have been uniformly thinned for a snug fit. A bushing then leaves the necks right after sizing without an expander.

Factory chambers are so large that turning necks past a modest amount simply makes a poor fit worse. For them, a bushing sizer only moves any thickness varitation inside and that makes for slightly varing bullet grip.

Perhaps the best solutions for factory chambers is to first skim turn 60-80% of the necks to remove any gross thickness variations. Then resize with either a Lee Collet Neck Sizer OR a bushing die that reduces the necks only slightly smaller than the expander. That will allow the expander to uniform the insides a minimum amount and should produce some straight necks.

Personally, I prefer the simplicity and very good results I get with Lee's neck dies.

IF/when I need to "FL" size I just use a body die along with the Lee neck sizer and still get very good necks with a minimum of fuss.

Ditto on the LEE dies. I find that if you will work the brass 4 times through the die and turn the brass 30-45 degrees while you are doing it, it does a decent job of moving the brass around and uniforming the neck. This only has to be done the first time you load the brass.

Okay BISCUT, here it is.

For the bushing die you need to buy a specific sized bushing. That bushing will size the outside diameter of the case neck to that specific dimension (except for a very small amount of springback which will vary with work hardening). The bushing die also comes with an expander like a normal FL die. Most users of the bushing dies are reloaders who know at least a little about reloading so they know that they can take the expander out.

The only advantage of leaving the expander in would come with buying a bushing that is just under the expander diameter. For example if the expander that came with the bushing die had a diameter of .305" (30-06 example) then you could buy a bushing that was .304"+2*neck thickness (example .304"+.014"+.014"=.332". You might have a problem if you size some necks that had a thicker or thinner neck thickness. When in use the bushing would size the ID down to .304" and the expander would come out and only size the inside of the neck up .001" to .305". Not much working of the case neck.

By contrast a FL die may size the ID of the same 30-06 case down to .300" before the expander at .305" came back out and expanded the neck up .005". A lot of working of the brass and a lot more force required to pull the expander back through.

If you do not outside neck turn, using the expander with the close fitting bushing would be the best way to use a bushing die, IMO. The reason is that bushing will push all the neck variances to the inside of the neck when it sizes the outside of the neck to the specific dimension of the bushing. If you don't use the expander and if you have not outside neck turned to a consistant thickness, then the inside of the neck will have hills and valleys.

But if you outside neck turn and use the bushing die without the expander then you will not get the hills and valleys on the inside of the case neck (or at least not to the degree you will have them if you do not neck turn). Then you will buy a bushing that will give you the amount of bullet grip you want after you have outside neck turned to the exact dimension that is needed with that bushing.

Or you might buy brass that has completely consistant neck thickness to begin with. Lots of luck with that, maybe Lapua or some other expensive brass but most of my Remington brass will vary .002" and I have seen brass that went from .009" on one side to .017" on the other (definitely defective brass and unusable).

Clear as mud?

Step in any time ,Butch. roger

Oh yeah

drum roll here

the best reason to use a bushing die -
no stinkin case lube

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
George,

Sooooo does that mean you have to neck turn for the bushing die to truly be effective?

Neck turning optimizes the effectiveness of a bushing die because you are starting out with a uniform neck thickness (no high/low spots to mess with bullet/neck tension).

George

Going to throw a wrinkle at you here........

According to Redding they do not recommend neck turning for a non-BR (tight) chamber but do recommend sorting brass by neck thickness not weight....AND
.......a properly machined sizing button is a-ok to leave installed on the die......

Now everything is certainly clear as mud!!!!!!

Redding says that for two reasons. Okay, one multi-answer reason.

Turning case necks just increases the clearance in factory chambers. That leads to excessive working of the brass. That just wears brass out faster. And, loads are usually not as accurate because of the increased/excessive clearance.

Twenty years ago I did a couple issue series on the Savage 112 target models in 22-250 for Precision Shooting Magazine.
Four rifles, single shot and repeater in synthetic VS laminated 40-X-style stocks. They still make them that way.
Anyway, I had Redding dies, and 200 new factory 22-250 cases. The cases were all weighed, and segregated into four lots of twenty.
I also had the same number of 30-06 IIRC) cases. Same lot.

Every rifle got fired with factory 55gr HP for break-in. 20 rounds. Savage bought into the concept, and chambered these four rifles with the same reamer, consecutively for me. Surprise, the laminate stock single shot was most accurate, followed by the other SS, and then the repeaters, laminate and synthetic. Then, I got the Imperial Sizing Die Wax out and made those '06 cases into 22-250. Same results, but the neck clearance was reduced from .006"-.007" to less than .004". All four rifles went from groups in the high .6" to low.7" size to high .4" to low.5" groups.

We created a pseudo tight-neck chamber for them all. They got casenecks turned and those factory rifles would get down to shooting spooky groups. I made six out of military '06 brass that ended up with .0025" clearance. I got a warm-up shot and then five in the low .3"s.

Bench Rest guys routinely shoot brass turned to provide .001" total clearance on a loaded round. Brass lasts forever. After several firings they would bump the body and shoulder back maybe .001". At that same time they sometimes would replace the neck bushing with one .001" smaller to allow for loss of brass elasticity.

At one timenoted NE gunsmith/shooter Seeley Masker shot with a "Slip-fit" chamber. Less than .0003" on a loaded round. He did not resize fired cases, just deprimed them with an arbor press and reloaded them.

There are better qualified people here to discuss this than me. It was just state of the art in the 1990's.

Rich