I just bought a new Ruger P90 .45ACP, my first auto loader. I also bought a box of Starline brass and a box of Laser Cast 200 grain RN bullets .452 diameter. Laser Cast are my favorite bullets, I've been using them in my revolvers with no problems and they have been very accurate and reliable. I chose round nose bullets for this gun because I thought they would feed better than SWC style bullets. The cases were sized and trimmed to .888" and the bullets were seated to 1.275" OAL, and I taper crimped the case necks to .469". I loaded up 50 rounds and went out to try them but my gun refuses to chamber them. If I allow the slide to snap shut the cartridge jams and is very difficult to extract. I tried five different rounds, all with the same result. Most of them partially unseated the bullet after they were extracted.
What is going on here? I've never experienced any problems with this brand of bullets in my revolvers. I don't have any factory ammo to try out, I intended to make my own handloads from the start when I bought this gun.

you either did not get them fl resized or you may have bulged the case when you crimped, too much crimp?

Is you OAL too long? If not you should try a Lee Factory Crimp die on the cartridges, it is almost a must for me when loading ammo for an autoloader.

The cases were full length sized, I adjusted the die until it just contacts the shell holder on my press with the ram fully extended. All cases were trimmed to the .888" specification after sizing and were deburred inside and out. For the crimp I was given a measurement of .468"-.472" at the edge of the case after crimping. I've measured the whole batch and they all come out to .469" at the tip of the case where the crimp is applied. The OAL length is right on the money, 1.275".
The feed ramp picks up the cartridge and they enter the barrel, but they will not fully chamber which leaves the slide about 1/4" to 1/2" from being fully closed. I'm at a loss as to whats causing this, I've never loaded .45 cases before and from what I've read the P90 is known to eat about any ammo out there.

this is a guess, but maybe the slope of the roundnose of the laser cast bullet is engaging the barrel lands,before the case mouth seats in the chamber, try seating the bullet deeper. i had a simular problem with hornady jacketed flatnose bullets.take your time and let us know the oal when the round seats properly in the chamber.
bearden

Two thoughts: First, are the cast bullets too large (diameter) for the bore of your pistol? If so, when you seat them you're [inadvertently] bulging the case enough to present a problem. Second, aren't you supposed to taper crimp a cartridge that headspaces on the mouth?

Sounds to me that if your bullets are being "partially unseated" then your bullets are too long. OAL depends on the bullets being used. Sounds like your reloads are failing to chamber because the bullets are longer than the chamber and are entering the rifling. Adjust the seating depth shorter and see if the rounds chamber.The other thought is that your bullets are too large. Looks like they are meant for a 45 Colt perhaps and not the 45acp. Shouldn't those be .451?
Peter.
OOPS. Looks like I just said what the other guys said!

I did some more thinking about this and have come to the same conclusion, the OAL is too long and the bullet is trying to engage into the rifling lands as it is being chambered which explains the sticking. I've always loaded revolver cases up to this point, which don't seem to be as picky about seating depth so long as the bullets don't protrude past the cylinder. I tried emtpy cases and it chambers them easily. I don't have specific load info for these bullets but I called the company and they will be mailing it out to me. These are .45 ACP bullets, not .45 LC. .452" is the only diameter available for the .45 ACP from this company and from what I've seen most all cast bullets for the .45 are this size while jacketed bullets are .451"
I did use a taper crimp which is what my seating/crimping die is designed for. I measured the outer diameter of the cases and there is no bulging. I just went by the Lyman book which suggests 1.275" as the maximum OAL. They also warned not to seat the bullets too deeply for risk of too much pressure. I'm using 4 grains of Bullseye powder, which I figure should be a safe amount to start with based on the info I have available. Will there be any danger if I seat the bullets about .20" deeper with this powder charge? I'm almost certain seating them deeper will take care of the problem.

I think you are correct in the OAL assumption. I use 200 gra. Lazercast SWC in my Colt Gov. Model with 5.0 grains of bullseye at an OAL of 1.255 for about 875 fps. They feed very reliably as well.

Rowdy,

I have loaded the 45 ACP extensively for the past few years and in my experience, it will be fine to seat the bullet a little deeper without reducing the powder charge. Unlike centerfire rifle cartriges, the 45 ACP does not display significant changes in pressure with varying oal.

Your OAL is definetly too long, try 1.18"-1.20"

quote:

Originally posted by molar1:
Rowdy,

I have loaded the 45 ACP extensively for the past few years and in my experience, it will be fine to seat the bullet a little deeper without reducing the powder charge. Unlike centerfire rifle cartriges, the 45 ACP does not display significant changes in pressure with varying oal.

And you know this how?

This morning I adjusted my seater plug and tried them at 1.255", but the slide still wouldn't close fully so I ended up with 1.245". I tried loading several rounds and they all seemed to chamber and eject without any trouble so I headed off to do some shooting. Once I started I found the bullets still weren't seated far enough. Out of 50 rounds I had to push the slide forward slightly on about half of them. I also had three failure to fires out of that batch. I'm not sure what caused this, the slide was fully closed and the hammer dropped but nothing happened. After ejecting the cartridge I found the primer hadn't even been dented. After loading them into the chamber a second time they all fired. I'm using CCI primers, if this continues to be a problem I'll try a different brand.
I'm going to wait until I get the load info from Laser Cast before I try loading anymore so I can see what they specify for OAL and powder charges with these bullets. Thanks for the help everyone

First off go buy yourself a "Case Gauge". This allows you to slide the bullet into a gauge to test the dimensions of the loaded case while your still sitting at your reloading bench. The gauge is like a chamber without a barrel. Their also useful when loading for revolvers.

Secondly, go buy a box of cheap round nose factory loaded bullets. Since you've not loaded for an ACP before, you can adjust your dies both for crimp and length using a factory round and just bringing it up to a snug touch with the dies.

Thirdly, unless your reloading different brands of brass you probably don't need to trim and probably don't need to debur. (I never do either) Remember it's a straight walled case and there's little if any stretching of the bass during firing. If you are reloading different brass, which means that you "may" have minor differences in case length, then sort them out by brand and only load one brand at at time. You may have to readjust your dies for each brand.

Fourth, your probably applying too little or too much crimp. If Too Little--the case mouth won't slide all the way into the chamber and your bullets may not be held in the case enough. If Too Much--you may deform or bulge the sides of the case and this too will keep the bullet from sliding all the way into the chamber.

1) You can take the barrel out of your pistol and use it's chamber as a case gauge to check if your reloads chamber correctly while you are still at your load bench.

2) Shortening the OAL of the 45 ACP most definitely WILL raise the pressure, it doesn't pop primers or bulge cases because the 45 ACP is a low pressure round so the pressure doesn't get really high, but it does go up.

3) The load manual you are using should specify the cartridge OAL for the load you are using, follow it and your reloads shouldn't be giving you any problems. I load my 45 ACP with a 185 SWCHP bullet to an OAL of 1.24 and they work fine in my Kimber; but my Lyman load manuals say that a 230 RN jacketed or 225 RN cast lead bullets should have an OAL of 1.272"

rowdy, did you not read my post, your rounds are too long. Seat them @ 1.20" & you should have no problems. I suggest you load a dummy round, no powder & try seating the bullet, then try feeding it by cycling the slide.
No disrespect intended, but why ask for help then ignore what the guys offer?

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
rowdy, did you not read my post, your rounds are too long. Seat them @ 1.20" & you should have no problems. I suggest you load a dummy round, no powder & try seating the bullet, then try feeding it by cycling the slide.
No disrespect intended, but why ask for help then ignore what the guys offer?

I had already reseated and fired them before I read your post.

You're all wrong.

I just went through the same thing.

Lasercast bullets actually measure .453" and the Ruger throat is probably .452". The Bullet must be loaded so that some of the driving band is out of the case to center the bullet in the throat. Setting the OAL to cure an oversized bullet problem will only result in lead shaving and subsequent malfunctions, plus leading.

Get some smaller bullets.

A dummy round will tell for sure, but I doubt the bullets he has are .423, if so, Lasercast is selling a poor product.

I measured mine and they all read .453", both the 200gr SWC and the 230gr RN. I'm having the same issue as Rowdy.

I like and have used Laser Cast bullets for over 10 years. It is possible that your bullets are oversized given that they make bullet diameters according to customer wishes, but I doubt they are different than what the box lable specifies.
In the for what it's worth department, my 1911 shot well with both .451" and .452" diameter lead bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by rowdyredneck:
I just bought a new Ruger P90 .45ACP, my first auto loader. I also bought a box of Starline brass and a box of Laser Cast 200 grain RN bullets .452 diameter. Laser Cast are my favorite bullets, I've been using them in my revolvers with no problems and they have been very accurate and reliable. I chose round nose bullets for this gun because I thought they would feed better than SWC style bullets. The cases were sized and trimmed to .888" and the bullets were seated to 1.275" OAL, and I taper crimped the case necks to .469". I loaded up 50 rounds and went out to try them but my gun refuses to chamber them. If I allow the slide to snap shut the cartridge jams and is very difficult to extract. I tried five different rounds, all with the same result. Most of them partially unseated the bullet after they were extracted.
What is going on here? I've never experienced any problems with this brand of bullets in my revolvers. I don't have any factory ammo to try out, I intended to make my own handloads from the start when I bought this gun.

You have firsat to determine WHAT is preventing the rounds from going into the chamber freely.
The loaded rounds should drop freely into the chamber of your barrel just by gravity, and then drop out when you invert the barrel.

Take the barrel out, and use it as a gauge to see if this is what happens. If not, you'll have to determine the max. diameter of your pistol's chamber, and make sure your loaded rounds are no more than this diameter. Take a loaded factory round, and see if it goes in easily. If it goes in and comes out like it should, then mike it and compare the diameter to the diameter of your handloads.

This "drop a round in the chamber" test will also show you if the bullets are not seated deeoly enough as the case head will not be flush with the end of barrel shroud.

You may have to use smaller bullets. As some have noted above, it is possible that in seating those .452" bullets, you are increasing the case necks to a diameter greater than your barrel will accept. (Please note GI hardball ammmo was routinely loaded with .450" bullets. These were needed to ensure reliable feeding, and as a result, there was/is a lot of gas blowby in military guns using military ammo. This resulted in relatively short barrel life in issue weapons......

You may have to size your bullets down in a .451" or even .450" bullet sizer.

I use my barrel as a gauge to several things. The first use is to determine exactly how short to trim the case. For accuracy, you wan=t to maintain headspace as accurately as possible by trimming the cases to the exact same length, so they come flush with the barrel shroud. This means the cases are custyom-trimmed for YOUR particular chamber. You can mike a couple, then record the length and use it to set your trimmer in the future, rather than setting the length from some book!

While doing this, you can test EVERY cartridge case to ensure that it enters the chamber freely. Do this test again after loading the round to ensure thaat the case mouth is still small enough, and that the bullets aren't engaging the rifling.

If you ammo passes these gauging checks, it should work well!

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
1) You can take the barrel out of your pistol and use it's chamber as a case gauge to check if your reloads chamber correctly while you are still at your load bench.

2) Shortening the OAL of the 45 ACP most definitely WILL raise the pressure, it doesn't pop primers or bulge cases because the 45 ACP is a low pressure round so the pressure doesn't get really high, but it does go up.

3) The load manual you are using should specify the cartridge OAL for the load you are using, follow it and your reloads shouldn't be giving you any problems. I load my 45 ACP with a 185 SWCHP bullet to an OAL of 1.24 and they work fine in my Kimber; but my Lyman load manuals say that a 230 RN jacketed or 225 RN cast lead bullets should have an OAL of 1.272"

This sounds like most(not all) of the suggestions are stabs in the dark. Not the post I've quoted, this one all makes sence.

You need to make sure that any suggestions you follow make sence to you before you try them.

Pull the barrel and use it to check your loaded rounds. Excellent idea. You might want to do a dummy round first though.(thankyou Fred excellent idea) Size the case, no primer or powder, then seat the bullet and try it.
Your bullets are probably too large(as several suggested) If you can't get .451" cast bullets, then you might try getting the Lee bullet sizer to size all your oversize cast bullets first. Go to Midway and have a look. They are cheap and just fit in your loading press.

"The bullets are partially pulled from the case." A bulged case would not cause this. The bullet getting stuck in the throat and/or rifleings will cause this.
A bulged case might cause the round to not chamber, but it wouldn't do anything to the bullet.

Seating the bullets deaper will definatly raise the pressure.(some did tell this one correctly) The percentage of lost usable case capacity is much greater in a straight walled short cartridge than compared to a bottle necked rifle cartridge.
If you have a chronograph, you could run the rounds across it. You can't get more velocity without more powder, or more pressure.

He already said he was taper crimping, so that's good. Just make sure it isn't too much, as you said you did by measureing the OD of the crimp.

You have a Ruger P90, a very strong gun, so you shouldn't run into many problems if your pressure do go slightly higher.

Your primer didn't get dimpled. Probably because the slide wasn't forward all the way and their is a built in saftey to keep it from fireing if the barrel isn't locked into the slide(into battery).

You should probably get your bullets sized down first and check a dummy round in the barrrel, then feeding from the magazine.

Here is a link to the Lee lube and size kit in .451" diameter.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=444306

I imagine that I may have tweaked a few of you, but stop and take a breath first before you reply all heated up. Go back and look at your replies to see why they didn't apply here, or had wrong information in them.

To those of you who did reply with all good information, then the above isn't intended to offend you. As stated, there were some good suggestions, but many others that were not.

Flame suit on, blast away, and Rowdy, you need to make sure the suggestions make sence before you accept or try them.

take care.

I did try stripping the pistol early Sunday morning and dropped loaded rounds into the barrel. I just kept seating them a little deeper about .010" at a time until the appeared to fully seat in the chamber. I have measured the case around the bullet and they aren't bulged from seating the bullets. I grabbed a handful of bullets late last night and measured about 15 of them, all were exactly .452" as specified. Before I attempt to load anything else I'm waiting for the load info from Laser Cast to see what they specify for powder charges and seating depth. I'll do some experimenting with dummy rounds once I have this info to fine tune it to my pistol. It may be next weekend before I'm able to get back to it because I'm pretty overloaded with work right now.

Thats my take on it, boolits are too large coupled with Starline brass that may be a little thicker. Seating depth has to be worked out with every boolit change before load development. My friend got rambunctious with his crimp die and bulged his cases. They would not even start in the chamber and it was very visible.

I punched some numbers into quickload to see what might happen with seating the bullet deaper with the same powder charge.
**Just a simulation, not actual load data**
45 acp with 230 TMJ, max pressure 21,000 psi
4.8gns bullseye
1.275" 823 fps @ 14,625 psi
1.235" 851 fps @ 16,911 psi
1.200" 878 fps @ 19,674 psi

3.8gns Clays]
1.275" 791 fps @ 20,183 psi
1.235" 808 fps @ 23,304 psi
1.200" 825 fps @ 27,015 psi

**Quickload is not always accurate, just an idea of what might happen with the bullets seated deaper.

hey Lar, can you run that w/ Unique, say 6gr?
thanks

Hi Fred, here you go.
**Just a simulation, not actual load data**
45 acp with 230 TMJ, max pressure 21,000 psi
6.0gns Unique
1.275" 889 fps @ 16,880 psi
1.235" 920 fps @ 19,673 psi
1.200" 951 fps @ 23,101 psi
**

Quickload can be very handy when looking at things like seating revolver bullets out farther to take advantage of cylinders that allow a longer COAL. Like a 300gn bullet in a Ruger Blackhawk 45 colt. Assume max pressure of 28,000 psi for the Ruger. 7.5" bbl simulated at 9"(for the cylinder length).
1.65" 24.3gns 296 1392 fps @ 28,200 psi.
1.75" 24.3gns 296 1300 fps @ 21,700 psi.
1.75" 26.4gns 296 1430 fps @ 27,940 psi.
**Not load data**
Use most of the cylinder length and the old 45 colt starts to look pretty good with a 300gn bullet.

Thanks Lar. I the data is pretty much what I thought. Clays, or any fast powder, is very unforgiving if you have any bullet setback.

I've found HS6 to be a very good powder in the .45 ACP, especially with heavier loads and 230-grain bullets. It meters well, also.....

I contacted Oregon Trail. They sait the bullets should mike .4525" because they use a .4520" sizer anf the bullets spring back a bit.

If you seat the bullets short, they will shave lead when entering the throat. Soon you will have a leaded chamber. This is not a good idea.

I gave up and will melt these suckers down. I have some very expensive casting alloy

There are 2 sides to this coin! Rugers have fairly long throats. Rowdy, I have encountered a similar problem but not with the OT bullets. I use Northeastern and mine are pretty consistent at .452" diameter. Going as long as 1.240" and down to 1.210" I still get the occasional FTF in my P-345 depending on the load intensity. I have never had a malfunction with a jacketed bullet in this pistol. Any of these load lengths with the 200 gr. RNFP will work fine in 1911s I've tried them in. Higher load velocity to get higher slide velocity seems to help, but it's not a cure. I never wanted to go to a shorter OACL because the casemouth would end up near the crimp groove unless you get down to 1.190" or so. I don't know if the two bullets come from the same mould, but they are intended for the .45 Colt originally, not the .45 ACP. I wanted to use them to replicate recoil of 200 gr. JHP bullets and possibly for shooting games rather than a target type 200 gr. SWC load. I have used several powders in the process as well. Lyman loads their 195 and 200 gr. bullets with similar shapes and weights to very short OACL, they are actually SWCs, but without as much shoulder as commercially cast 200 gr. SWCs. As Ralph Hyrlik points out, you do have a potential for lead shaving, but moreso with a SWC than a RNFP. The rounded ogive of the 200 gr. RNFP should help lessen the potential vs. a square shoulder SWC. Also the OT bullets are extremely hard at 26 Brinnell. The Northeast I use are very hard at 19 with a molycoating. I'm not ready to give up yet. I'll probably try an OACL of around 1.185" or short enough to get the casemouth past the crimp groove in mine. If they lead, I'll stop and they'll be used in .45 Colt loads. If they don't lead, I suspect that they will feed more reliably!

RRN: I had about 35 loads sitting here so I shortened them to 1.180". With the safety engaged I cycled quite a few of them through the pistol and they worked fine. Occasionally the longer loads would keep the slide from going into battery completely. Even when I cycled them the same way. The shorter length loads cycled without a hitch and I'll probably get out and shoot by the weekend. I expect that they will work perfectly, but I'll update the thread after I shoot!

While shortening the OAL will enable them to chamber, they will shave lead as they enter the throat.

Its been awhile but I thought I would update. I haven't had much time to play around with this but I loaded up 50 rounds with the bullets seated at 1.232" using 4.5 grains of Bullseye. Fired them all off with absolutely no problems. The slide closed fully and there were no failure to fires on this batch. I took the barrel out and there isn't even a hint of lead shaving, so I'm going to use this formula for now until I have more time this winter to experiment. I might try switching to Unique, my powder measure doesn't seem to like Bullseye very well when metering small charges.

quote:

I might try switching to Unique, my powder measure doesn't seem to like Bullseye very well when metering small charges.

If your measure doesn`t like Bullseye it probably won`t do any better or as well with Unique. Unique is a flake powder and in my experiance most measures prefer ball. WW231 or if you like a slower powder Power Pistol might be better choices if metering is your big concern. I use Titegroup or VV N320 for 200 gr LSWC loads in mine. I also like Power Pistol with 185 gr HPs or hot 230 gr HP loads but I haven`t tried the other powders or your bullet in mine. You might try searching for ideas over on the 1911 board, there is a loat of good info on the 45 acp there. http://forums.1911forum.com/

I've had decent luck with Unique because it usually takes a bigger powder charge than Bullseye. When I'm using Bullseye in the .45 and for .38 special loads the powder charge is often very small, from 3.5 to 4.5 grains and that's where I seem to have more trouble with powder cutting. Once I open up the metering screw for larger loads using flake powder it doesn't seem to be a problem.

rowdyredneck-
In the FWIW department, I can't remember a single shotgun/pistol powder that didn't work in the 45 ACP, however, some were dirtier than others. When all was said and done tho, the Hercules/Alliant family were my favorites, particulairly B'Eye, Unique, and Blue Dot. W-W231 and Hodgdon's Clays were favorites too.