Hope someone can help explain what is going on here. I am working up a 200 grain load for the 30-06 using Speer Hot-Cores, H414, Rem once fired brass (neck sized only). I started on this load using CCI 200 primers and worked up from starting loads to 1.5 grains above max listed in the Speer manual (max for Lyman 27) without any signs of pressure, but not much for accuracy. Noticed that the Speer manual recommended CCI magnum primers for this load, but having none I substituted Fed 215s. I fired two 3 shot groups with the 215s at 3 and 2.5 grains below the listed Speer max. Both groups were some of the most accurate I've seen from this rifle (~ 1/3moa), but from the first shot I noticed that primers were backing out (measured later at .07-.10). Also fired five shots with some factory ammo my buddy had at the range with no backing out of those primers. Anyone have an explanation for this? Thanks!

might have stretched the primer pockets with the max+ loads. try some new brass and when you substitute componets it is wise to reduce the load and work back up. some Primers are hotter than others and magnum primers are known to cause pressure spikes in some loads.

Thanks, but I'm still not sure what is going on here.

Starting load with the 215s was backed off 3 grains from the Speer max and 4.5 grains from the Lyman max. There was no flattening of the primer or any other pressure signs I could read. All of the brass was from factory ammo fired only once in this rifle, so there shouldn't be any difference in the primer pockets. Cases were only resized on the neck and the shoulder of the brass was not set back in the die. I also measured the other loaded cases and found no difference (+/- .001) in the shoulder location after firing.

I would think that pressures are too low.
When the powder starts burning the primer is backed out hard against the bolt face. By how much depends on the amount of headspace.
As presure increases the brass expands to completely fill all free room, swallowing the primer back to its pocket.
If pressure is not high enough this will not happen, and the primer will remain slightly out of its place.
I cannot tell in your particular case, but I saw this happen before, and increasing the charge, thereforwe the pressure, corrected it.
montero

I second montero's explanation.

The firing pin pushes the case forward on impact, the primer lights, pushing itself back out of the pocket, if your powder charge does not push the case head back over the primer charge it stays backed out.
Increase the powder charge and it should go away.
Guy

H-414 From 46.0 grains to 53.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer

You might wanna try:
H-4831 From 48.9 grains to 60.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer

Montero & Guy - If this is a low pressure problem, why is it happening only with the magnum primers? Doesn't seem right that the Fed 215s are creating less pressure than the CCI 200s.

I don't know how old your gun is but I have an older Kreighoff 7X57 Mauser that was backing the primers out and ended up having to get it rechambered. However, the headspacing was in question from the beginning. Good luck and if you need the name of a good gunsmith let me know.

The magnum primers have more energy and are driving the cases deeper into the chamber upon ignition. They do this by pushing on the case web when fired. IF the load is low pressure then the primer isn't being reseated by the firing of the cartridge. Clear as mud right? Plateau Hunter

Following up on Plateau Hunters explanation, the 215s are backing out more than the other primers and aren't being pushed back in because the 215 are more violent when lit. It gets more complicated since you are using Federal and CCI primers, I believe Federal 215 are made of a softer metal than CCI (Fed100 are softer than CCI spp for sure) and are more likely to back out.
If you are saying that you tried the same powder charge lit with CCI and Federal and only Federal backed out then first I am surprised (it does not sound right,BUT lots of things happen that don't sound right) and second I would bump up the charge with the 215 and see what happens.
Everyone I know needs more range time so look at this as a mystery that forces you to go to the range and have fun.
Guy
BTW have you checked headspace?
Put a couple of layers of electricians tape on the base of 1 of your primed cases and try to chamber it, if you can close the bolt without a major major effort then you have too much headspace, which would contribute to your problems

Guy - Still baffled here!

quote:

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Originally posted by Guy Morrison:
If you are saying that you tried the same powder charge lit with CCI and Federal and only Federal backed

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That is what is happening. The Fed 215s are backing out at the same charge levels that the CCI 200s aren't.

quote:

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BTW have you checked headspace?
Put a couple of layers of electricians tape on the base of 1 of your primed cases and try to chamber it, if you can close the bolt without a major major effort then you have too much headspace, which would contribute to your problems

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Bolt closes on a Forster GO gauge and won't close on a NO GO gauge. Anything else I should look for?

This could be a headbanger!
The check with the Go/NoGo guages tells you if the barrel is properly set up.
The check with the tape on your brass tells you if your brass has excess headspace.
It is not likely that the CCI primers are not backing out it is just that they are being reseated during firing, take 2 once fired cases prime 1 with CCI and 1 with 215 and fire each of them with no powder or bullet just to see what happens.

I just reread your first post, did you mean to say that the primer was backed out one tenth of an inch or one one hundredth of an inch?(One tenth would mean the primer was three quarters of the way out of the case!)

Did you try to reseat the backed out primers and if so was there normal resistance?

Have you tried to seat primers in the pockets of the cases where the 215s backed out and if so did they have the normal resistance?

What are you using for a priming tool?

This seems likely to be a pain to figure out but for that accuracy it should be worth it
Guy

Raltrap,
It is unlikely that the 215's produce lower pressures than the cci200's.
But then, I have seen that more unlikely things do happen.
Honestly, I can't be sure what the problem is. Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
montero