Recently acquired a Winchester Hi-Wall with a replacement barrel chambered for the .219 Zipper Improved cartridge. Anybody got data or a recommendation for a source of data for this cartridge?

Any truth to the story that the .225 Winchester is just a .219 Zipper Improved with a different rim size and that the data is interchangeable?

Thanks.

quote:

Any truth to the story that the .225 Winchester is just a .219 Zipper Improved with a different rim size and that the data is interchangeable?

Even improved and blowing the shoulders forward I don’t think the Zipper can have the same case capacity as the Winchester.

I should have checked QL first. The Zipper Improved has a total case capacity of 38.0 grains water and the Winchester is 40.0 grains. So I was right but not by much.

This might help:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/zipper.htm

As with rear-ends, there are hundreds of different verions. At the time they were being done the gun smiths would cut their on reamers. If the gun came with a set of dies thats a plus but you should do a chamber cast and make sure that the dies will work with the chamber in the gun. They could have been added later. Ackley has a page in his Red book on his verion with data. Most of his loads are very optomitic,at the least, for his Improved cartridges. With the balistic programs now, some of his loads run 55-60K cups for 40K brass(30-30). Alot of his speeds came from using a pendulume setup that you fired into a hanging peice of pipe that trapped the bullet. By knowing the weight of the pipe, weight of bullet and by how far the pipe moved you could work back to find the FPS. I have a 219 Impoved Zipper in my cartridge collection and it is "just close" to what MickinColo posted but not the same.

I too have a Highwall in 219 Zipper Improved. My cases, made from 30-30, would hold just a touch more powder than the 225 brass I had. The 225 operates at higher pressure than the original Zipper. I started load development with standard Zipper loads using 4320, 4064 and 4895 and 55 grain bullets.

When I built my Improved Zipper I expected to get a 22-250 with a rim on the case, what I got was a 223 with a rim. The highest velocity I could get safely with a 52 grain bullet, (no sticking cases) was about 3200 fps. Ackleys claims of 3600 fps were, at least in my case, only a dream.

I was so disappointed, the rifle has set in the gun cabinet with its tapered octagon barrel, 20 power Unertl scope and factory single set trigger unfinished for at least twenty years. Perhaps some day I'll finish it.

Many Improved Zippers used a relatively tapered case body design when compared to the 225. Straighter than the original Zipper but not quite as straight as the 225 which was apparently designed to clean up most original Improved chambers. Or IOW making it impossible for some cretin to use factory ammo in his wildcat(grin).

Anyway the tapered case will cause increased sticking, MOST noticable in the original Zipper but also present to some degree in some of the Improved versions. I have acquired a 225 reamer to rechamber at least one of my own early Improved rifles, to use factory brass and incidentally to see if I notice any easier extraction. Will report later.

I found that I HAD to ream/turn case necks when using 30-30 brass.
Regards, Joe

Between the 225 Win and 219 ZI for a new barrel,you would have to be super incredably into nostalgia to pick the 219 over the 225Win. The 219 ZI loading dies,forming dies(2or3)and a ream die with reamer will cost a lot more than the barrel will cost to have chambered and installed. For the brass you will need 30-30 case that take a min. of 3 forming steps, anneleling, fire forming and then full lenght size . You then have cases that are alot weaker than 225Win cases and uses handmedown loading data that have never been pressure tested.

The Improved Zipper and the 225 are close enough that you wouldn't be far off using 225 data for the AI Zipper.
I have seen no evidence that 30/30 brass is any weaker than any other. It's the same composition and the web is the same thickness. In fact, I notice the web is thicker on some 30/30 brass i have than it is on 308 Norma brass. I have shot 219 Donaldson Wasp rifles using brass formed from 30/30 and from 225 and pressures and velocities were similar. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
Between the 225 Win and 219 ZI for a new barrel,you would have to be super incredably into nostalgia to pick the 219 over the 225Win.

I can stand a 219 Zip Imp case and a 225 case an inch apart, hiding the rim, and can't tell them apart.

Starting over, if I wanted a 219 Zipper Improved, I would just use a 225 reamer, cut a 30-30 sized rim recess, and stamp the barrel "219 Zipper Improved."

CH4D.com says:
"219 Zipper Improved (28 Versions)"

The 225 reamer/die version would be as good as any.

Bruce