I am trying to find a way to take runout out of my new Winchester 223 cases. Some of them have as much as .005". They have been resised with a RCBS FL die. I tried running them through my Lee collet die to take care of it but it doesn't seem to work. Will a Redding bushing die take care of the problem? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Neck sizeing dies won`t help a run out problem. Neck sizers just work the neck letting the body of the case move if pressure isn`t applied equally on the neck. The FL dies hold the case in alinement while its being sized.
Was the brass straight before you full sized it? If it was you may have a bad die, if not I`d blame a bad chamber.

[ 01-03-2003, 06:05: Message edited by: Ol` Joe ]

Bluecollar,
Stop full length sizing first. Take a fired case and check the runout on case OD and then with a center inside the neck check the runout on the neck. You may find that the neck is thicker at half the diameter. Clean the neck up with a neck reamer (inside or outside it doesn't matter). Fire the cases with this work done with your normal load. Now recheck the runout at the neck and body indexing on the INSIDE of the neck.

PaulS

Blue collar...

If these are virgin cases (brand new, never yet fired in your rifle), then you're probably not going to get rid of the runout until you fire them once in your rifle because the case bodies are not concentric.

Fireform them in your rifle, then load them up again and see how it goes. You'll see a big difference.

Dan

Paul,
an inside neck reamer will not give consistant neck thickness without the case neck being held with a bushing on the outside while performing it. Outside turning will, because of the mandrel on the inside, if it's tight.

The fired case should be runout free if the chamber is true. Minor differences can come from thickness variations, brass spring back being unequal.

Ol'Joe is right on too.

What is considered to be an acceptable amount of runout for a necked cartridge ?

Thanks !

Dino,

Various tests have shown that for larger calibers .30 and up, .006" is tolerable. For smaller calibers such as the .22's, I like to get it down to .003" or less.

Runout seems to affect the bullet more at close range than at long range, which is one of the reasons that we observe a bullet "going to sleep," and grouping better at 300 yards (MOA-wise) than it does at 100 yards.

Take care,
Dan

bluecollar,
Look at your sizing die and see if the de-capper rod expander ball is in the die true and square. i do not use the expander ball in any of my sizing dies as i have found that the expander ball as it is pulled back through the case neck causes them to streach and also if the rod is not perferctly square to the die it will contribute to case neck run-out. i use a sinclair expander body and neck turning mandrels which are .002" less than bullet dia. to get the proper neck tension. if you would like more info you can call me at 661-270-1601 i'm in california. it's a lot easier for me to explain all this over the phone.any one else here interested in this can also phone me. HTH
Rick

Rick,
You must have been dealing with Redding dies? The have the most hiddious runout I've ever seen on a expander stem! I always use mine just floating with no lockring. I have never detected runout increase after going over the ball like that so I never worried about it much. Something aint right down there when they're makin them things though! Hornady are the best I've seen. I just like the tops on the Reddings though. The carbide expander for the Reddings works much better too, well worth it. I'm converting to their S dies to get away from the expanders.

See the following for some really good information about runout.

http://216.219.200.59/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000297

Size the case like you usually do but then turn the case a qaurter to a third of a turn and run it back into the die, do this several times and then measure the runout. Also try one WITHOUT the expander ball in place using the above procedure. It has been my experience that the expander ball is the primary culprit in upsetting runout. Sometimes you can help the problem with more lube, but this gets messy and can also lead to hyrdolic dents in the case shoulder. You may find some success with this method, or you can do as I did, Sell all your dies and by Lee dies that size the neck with a collet. It sounds like you probably have a case master or some such tool to measure runout. If you do, take some of those 'crooked' rounds. Run them through the case master and mark either the low or the high spot on the side of the case with a fine point marker. Load them into your rifle with this mark in the same position each time and test them for accuracy, you should be surprised at the result.

Enjoy, Gene................

The expander ball on my Redding dies is not a ball but a long tapered spear-looking thing. It doesn't jerk the neck around like some inside neck expanders. It's the carbide replacement for the original but I still use Imperial sizing die wax.

I too use the Lee collet dies for neck sizing only but have found it hard to measure runout on the neck itself cause of the tiny lumps caused by the collet fingers. So I indicate off the bullet body. Works for me.

Thanks for all the reply's so far and I am trying the different suggestions. The brass for my 223 is virgin never fired brass. I was hoping to straighten it out before firing it. If you remove the expander ball how do you decap? I removed the ball on my RCBS die and the pin comes with it.
I also have a 280 that I am experimenting with and I have once fired brass that measures .001 or less before sizing. After sizing (neck sizing with a full length die) they measure more and I can't figure out why? It does look like the decapper is positioned plum and true in the die when I look at it with the naked eye. Is there any way to accurately measure this?

Thanks again for the suggestions,
bluecollar

Here is an update on the 280 cases. I removed the expander ball and decapping pin after I decapped all my cases. I then ran then through the sizing die a 2nd time (no expander ball) and then seated bullets. My bullet runout was less than .003. I guess that means my expander is not square to the die.

bluecollar

As I mentioned above, if you're dealing with virgin brass, the case body will likely not be concentric. Therefore, when you roll the case in the V blocks to check runout, it will oscillate and give you erratic readings. (This won't necessarily mean that the bullet won't line up well with the throat).

I never worry much about runout on the first firing for this reason.

The FL sizer can help to some degree, but in my experience your brass will be much straighter after having been fired once.

Dan

ALL DIES NEED THE EXPANDER SPINDLE TUNED--here's what works for me.............

Bring the spindle down so the decapping pin sticks out a fair amount below the die. (make sure the expander ball won't hit the bottom ofthe shell). Size 3-5 fired brass and check runnount. If not acceptable set them aside and give the expander spindle about 1/12 turn up into the die. Size 3-5 more brass and check runnout. Keep repeating and eventually YOU WILL FIND THE SWEATSPOT for the spindle that is closest to the middle of the die.
With hornady dies loosen the hardware on the spindle and bring a empty case up into the die until it begins to "grip" the expander ball. Then tighten the hardware while the ball is being centered by the case. You may have to repeat this a time or two but HORNADY DIES have given me as good of reloaded ammo as my bonnanza/foresters that cost 2x's as much.
I can almost guarantee that unless you have a defective die body IT IS THE SPINDLE that is pulling the neck off center as it resized the neck. Hope this is understandable.