I spotted a post concerning this issue in a recent thread. I elected to make this a Poll so people would not have to make their choice known with who they are.

This really applies to folks who Shoot "at Game" beyond 300-400yds or so with an Adequate Cartridge for the task at hand.
-----

Feel free to make comments, because I feel sure I will later.

Question:
Do you "verify" your Drop Chart by actually shooting at the distances you plan to take shots at Game, or simply sight in at one distance and use a Computer Generated Trajectory.

Choices:
1. Yes, I verify the Drop Chart.
2. No, I sight in at one distance and rely on the Computer Generated Trajectory.

 

I didn't vote because neither question was a fit for me.

Personally, I could care less what the drop charts say and rarely consult them. I know the trajectory of my loads from experience, and that's what I rely on.

Most of my rifles are sighted dead-on at 200 yards, and I strive to keep shots on big game inside of 300. I have no problems punching paper or busting inanimate objects at much longer ranges and am familiar with the trajectories there, too.

The only drop chart that actually works is the one you make while you're actually shooting at all the various ranges. And even that one is subject to change with varying temperature and altitude!

I'm lucky, I can shoot out to 800 yards from a covered bench.
Regards, Joe

Since I started reloading long before Chronys and conputers came along, I do not rely on either. Of the two, a Chrony is much more useful,IMO, but it still won't tell you what YOUR bullet is gonna do downrange.
Since I've never seen a drop chart in any of the load books come close (close enough to be beyond vaguely useful) I doubt that a 'puter program is going to do any better. No more so than putting you load receipe in a program and it giving you an accurate readout of what your velocity is gonna be.

I am an old guy. I've been shooting more years than most Forum members have been walking.

It's interesting that shooters in the pre WW II days would have given their left gonad to have a chronograph and the ability to accurately estimate trajectory. Now, in the 21st Century, such things are available to shooters of even modest means and yet there are still those who would not use them.

I got my first chronograph in the 1960s and it opened a whole new world for me. I now use an even more sophisticated one with new-fangled electronic screens. I also use ballistics programs to estimate trajectories based on chronograph results. It's amazing how accurate the charts can be if you input accurate data. After all, ballistics are nothing more than physics and the laws of Mother Nature. They can't be broken, or even bent.

So, as you can guess, you can bet your ass that I will use any modern gizmo I can get my hands on when it comes to shooting. I use plastic stocks, wind flags, hi-power scopes, state-of-the-art rests, custom made bullets and barrels, accurate loading tools, high quality brass, you name it I use it.

I also drive an automobile with front wheel drive, automatic transmission, laser cruise control, and all-around air bags.

Sure, I shoot all my loads at the distances I intend to use them, at a target. Call me ignorant if you want, but I'm not stupid.

JMHO

Ray

Drop charts and trajectory calculators don't mean much without an actual chronographed velocity as a starting point. Before season, I try to shoot at the distances I'm likely to encounter in the field, even though I use a chronograph. Minute of deer allows some room for error sighting in, but there's no substitute for knowing.

99% of my hunting is here in Mi where a long shot is 50 yds. True one can shoot farther, a power line or fire lane for example, but if a aniamal is far enough to require a drop chart of some type to shoot at it (250-300 yd+ with the cartridges I use) I`ll pass and try to get closer.

I have access to a 300yrd range & find the computer data pretty close to actual shooting but not exact. So for serious hunters, you gotta verify drops or your longish shot is just a WAG.

I shoot all shots that are to be expeted when hunting,be it 100 yds or 600.It just makes sense to practice your shots.Also I try to wait till they are closer.Good Luck

Where I live a 150 yard range is a long one. So you generally sight in at 100 yards, check at 150 and pray you are close or hold fire at longer distance. Fortunately, my longest shot at game has been 134 yards.

quote:

1. Yes, I verify the Drop Chart.
2. No, I sight in at one distance and rely on the Computer Generated Trajectory.

1. You have to, without using a chrono (velocity stated on the cartridge box tolerates vaiables up to 12%, depending on barrel length and other peculiarities) and if you don't bother about BC.
2. A 'puter generated trajectory is only possible if you chrono'd the velocity and know the BC. Then for hunting it is quite reliable. If you go for sure, verify at 200 and 400 yards.

Nice day,
Jan

When I work up a load, before it hits the field for serious hunting, it has been across the chrono many times for validation of SD and ES. It has also been checked for groups and actual drops at numerous ranges out to at least 400yds and sometimes further.

I try to work up my loads in Jan - March, in weather similar to what it might be used in as well. This gives me a chance to also run it through hotter weather during the summer, and check for issues with pressure, and validate the actual drops. Once I hit the field with a load, I have a printed out chart which is a combination of the data I have gathered.

With a ballistics program like Exbal, one can manipulate the aspects of the load to adjust the printed chart to fit the zero of the load, and the actual field verified drops. This is a must as has been mentioned variables in BC due to the conditions in the area will effect the trajectory and pressures of a load. Once this is done it is simply a matter of dialing in or holding on the appropriate hash mark on the reticle to be on the money with the first shot.

Depending on which rifle, and what the intended purpose is, I might have one long range load, and another which is used for ranges only out to 200yds. Then it is simply a matter of chosing the ammo for the task at hand. Sometimes I hunt in thick stuff and sometimes I hunt where I could shoot across a wide open, flat 800 acre plowed cotton field, where getting closer isn't an option.

I do know that in the past 10-15+ years, when I settled the sights on anything out to 500yds, it has hit the ground with authority from as precision of a shot as I could make, and not been a case of "yea thats the general area I was aiming for". If I am not confident in the rifle and ammo I am shooting, it doesn't go out with me period, and when it does, I do not shoot at ranges beyond what it has been verified to on multiple outings.

The hunters that don't verify the drop chart are the hunters that end up saying "there is no way I should have missed that Elk-Deer-Caribou-groundhog. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Feel free to make comments, because I feel sure I will later.

I'll wait for your comments first. Like I don't already have a good idea what they'll be.

Hey Cheechako (Ray), I admire how you embrace all things modern. I like to take advantage of them myself, if applicable, but your last paragraph tells it all: you still cut the cards (verify) before shooting at distance.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
..I'll wait for your comments first. Like I don't already have a good idea what they'll be.

Hey Dave, You don't have to wait on me, dive in the water is deep and cool.

I expected "two" posts that said they would spimply sight in at one distance and then begin wounding and maiming. Must admit I'm surprised there are three people on here who know so little about External Ballistics that they would actually go Hunting without verifying their Drop Chart.

PT Barnum made a fine living off those folks in his day.
-----

Hey Ray, I like some Modern things myself. Really prefer "new" rifles and all the "new" reloading components in comparison to the old stuff. And at the same time, I do not need to waste money on things that really don't do anything to enhance the process or provide better data than I can Guesstimate. Just in the way and wastes money that can be better spent elsewhere.

However, I fully support folks tossing away money on Chronographs, Thingys and Primer Flippers - good for the economy.

Best of luck to all you folks - especially the wounders and maimers.

First of all, my comments relate to shooting at vermin, not game animals, at extended yardages.

If you know the velocity and can verify the ballistic coefficient (not simply use the manufacturer's publish BC since some of those have become advertising hype rather than real-world data) you'll find that the numerous trajectory programs are mostly very, very accurate. However, the only way to verify the theoretical is to test the actual. I've been taking advantage of the opportunity to test some of my long-range varminting loads at 700 yards, and I have been gratified at how precise the ballistics programs are for these particular loads.

Insofar as game loads are concerned, I have a 250 yard range available. I sight at 100, then verify at 250. This is adequate for any reasonable game shooting distance, since if your point of impact is where it should be at both 100 and 250, it will also be where predicted, within reason, at the longest reasonble game shooting yardages.

It is amazing how close Lt. Ingalls came with his calculations and how well his G-1 matches most small arms projectiles!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Dave, You don't have to wait on me, dive in the water is deep and cool.

I heard a line similar to yours from a snake oil salesman once upon a time.

But, if I'm allowed a viewpoint, I'd have to shoot at distance just to satisfy my curiosity.

After rereading your original post, I don't qualify to vote in your poll. I only had one occasion to shoot a kudu at something over 450 yards and refused. My Namibian PH carried a $5K Zeiss 20X image stabilized bino-rangefinder combo. My scope was a 2.8-10X Simmons. While he was admiring the great spiraled horns, I had difficulty just seeing the animal nibbling leaves in the shade of a tree! Since I had only practiced shooting off sticks at 300 yards, I decided to limit my shooting to that max range. The trophy animals deserved no less and besides I'm cheap. In Africa, wounding an animal and not recovering it counts the same against your quota as if it was brought to bag.

The upshot to all this is I wouldn't have to shoot to verify my drop as I don't utilize some table in the back of a bullet maker's load manual. I have an acoustic target with my Oehler M43. (Yes, another dreaded thingy) It calculates the BC for my bullet out of my gun. After all, what is BC but speed, distance, altitude, barometric pressure, et al. Just measure correctly and it does all the complicated mathematical calculations. And it doesn't matter if I change bullet brand, design, shape or component material. I could print out a drop chart for every one and tape it to my butt stock and know how to aim on any given game animal.

Eat your heart out, HotCore...I've got a thingy and you don't!!! But the proof is in the pudding, as they say. A drop chart didn't do me a bit of good on this cape cobra shot off the back of the Toyota Hi-lux at 5' hanging in the bushes along the trail. Sometimes you just have to wing it.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
...But, if I'm allowed a viewpoint, I'd have to shoot at distance just to satisfy my curiosity.

Hey Dave, I'm always interested in your viewpoint. May not always agree, but that is OK cause I may learn something.

quote:

After rereading your original post, I don't qualify to vote in your poll. I only had one occasion to shoot a kudu at something over 450 yards and refused. ...Since I had only practiced shooting off sticks at 300 yards, I decided to limit my shooting to that max range. The trophy animals deserved no less ...

Darn proud of your decision. Good for you.

quote:

The upshot to all this is I wouldn't have to shoot to verify my drop as I don't utilize some table in the back of a bullet maker's load manual. I have an acoustic target with my Oehler M43. (Yes, another dreaded thingy) It calculates the BC for my bullet out of my gun. After all, what is BC but speed, distance, altitude, barometric pressure, et al. Just measure correctly and it does all the complicated mathematical calculations. And it doesn't matter if I change bullet brand, design, shape or component material. I could print out a drop chart for every one and tape it to my butt stock and know how to aim on any given game animal.

Now you have to know I'd encourage people to do otherwise. If you get to shooting way out there, I would think your opinion might change on that concept. Especially since you are basing your faith in the SDT (Super-Duper-Thingy) and it is Non-Calibrated, uses Guessed at Dimentions, must have Software Fudge Factors, etc.

quote:

Eat your heart out, HotCore...I've got a thingy and you don't!!!

If I had one and you wanted it, I'd be glad to sell it to you. It is nice to hear you are happy with your purchase and it is doing what you want.

quote:

But the proof is in the pudding, as they say. A drop chart didn't do me a bit of good on this cape cobra shot off the back of the Toyota Hi-lux at 5' hanging in the bushes along the trail. Sometimes you just have to wing it.

Great shot! That snake would have been tough for "me" to hit way out there at 5' with a rifle, because of all the shaking I'd be doing. I do OK around snakes as long as I see them before I end up too close by sneaking-up on them or by doing the old Snake Dance(accidentally stomping them). I'm pretty much ready for the truck after a Snake Dance, because my Hunting concentration is pushed w-a-y back in Priority.

A Revolver with Speer Lead-Shot containing Capsules(357Mag or 44Mag) do right well to calm the Snakes down after I Dance on them. <--- Snake Dance

By the way, I noticed the Rifle Butt on your foot.

Best of luck to you and your SDT.
-----

I see we now have 6 folks who are all ready to go into the full wounding and maiming mode. Looks like we have a lot to teach them about Shooting.

A huge percentage of today's hunters would not think of hunting with a .30-30. But that is what you are often doing shooting at over 300 yards.

Hey HC, it's a slow night so I think I'll join in on all your fun.

First thing is that with all the talk about drop-charts and trajectory means that you are asking about shooting at the longer distances. At ~300 yards or less it is a moot point since almost any caliber when zeroed at 200 yards will drop between ~5" for a typical flat shooter to ~8" for a typical slow mover. So that 3" at 300 yards is almost indiscernible.

Which brings me to the next point. Long range shooting is a whole new ball game when you add in 2 items: a ballistic reticle and a chronograph. See, in these modern times one can plug in various data into a calculator like the RapidZ Calculator found on the Zeiss website and set your power to get your point of aim at the longer ranges


or if you are cranking turrets, using a scope like the Kahles MultiZeros or almost any ballistic reticle then you can calculate the POI on a 100 yard target and get your click-ups by shooting at 100 yards


It will get you a lot closer. BTW, tell me how even if you know that your 7 mag will drop 38" at 500 yards, how do you estimate where exactly to aim for that 38" when looking through a scope at a 500 yard target? How can you even get a decent group at 500 yards by estimating a 38" holdover for 5 shots. For some you might be aiming 35" over the target and others maybe 42" over, get my drift? What good did your drop chart do you?

That being said, I voted that I verify trajectories. But, I am always real close by hedging my bets as described above and using modern equipment. You ought to try it!

Hotcore, it wasn't trajectory exactly that I worried about. It was remembering that there is a 1.5" difference between the bore and the scope crosshairs and aiming that 1.5" higher than the snake's body. I had the crosshairs above its head for a split second, but it was moving too much for me to follow. It's head looks smashed because once it fell to the ground both the trackers and the PH bashed it with whatever was at hand. I was led to believe this is a spiting variety of cobra.

I hear its acceptable to wound and maim varmints. I guess where the targets are so thick that you carry your empties home in 5 gallon buckets, it doesn't matter if a percentage don't expire in a red mist. I've never experienced that sort of shooting\hunting. Summertime here in PA allows especially good groundhog hunting in alfalfa fields. But the shooting is no where near like it is with prairie dogs or the like. So when targets are far and few between because they got wised up from other hunters, you need to put on a stalk that is likely to produce a clean kill; if you want it to count.

My 2 year older neighbor Denny said he never claimed a groundhog kill if it managed to crawl back out of sight into its hole. Since we went our separate ways out onto the farm fields and then compared kills when it got to quitting time, I played by his rules. To this day I've never killed a groundhog farther than 135 yards. Cause even gut shooting one with a 25-06 won't always anchor them outside of their hole...I certainly wouldn't call them fragile.

I'd bet those 6 fellas in your poll are after varmints. I wouldn't use the invective 'wound and maim' it that situation. Because I'm led to believe it's acceptable in that style of hunting where the shooting is fast and furious, hour after hour.

As far as the M43's acoustic target needing calibration, you'd have to ask the inventor, Ken Oehler, about that. All my instructions ask is that I input the distance that the 3 microphones are apart, and that bullets crossing the mics go supersonic speed to produce the mach cone 'sonic boom' they must hear. This weekend I tried Rem Yellow jacket 22 rimfire and 38 Spcl wadcutters...neither produced the needed speed to trigger the mics. No guesses or fudge factors that I'm aware of. Although the smaller the triangle-sized target, the greater accuracy will be the on-screen accuracy. My 37" spacing yields better than 0.1" accuracy. It satisfies my needs.

Most hunters don't have access to 500 yard ranges. I am able to shoot 200 and I use a chrony to get my actual velocity and then use a drop chart ballistics program to get the drops for the next three hundred yards.

It's quite academic however as I almost never shoot more than 250 yards at deer or elk.

I shot a buck once at about 400 and the bullet hit the rib cage dead center. Luck? Maybe, but it has been good for my hunting style.

If I had a 500 yard range I'd sure use it!

quote:

Originally posted by the esteemed Mr. Woods:
...BTW, tell me how even if you know that your 7 mag will drop 38" at 500 yards, how do you estimate where exactly to aim for that 38" when looking through a scope at a 500 yard target?

Hey Woods, Good question. I've personally used Target Style Turrets and Mil-Dot Reticles with excellent results.

Used 3-9x scopes with Duplex style Reticles for a long time out to about 400yds with Round Nose Bullets. But..., that was a long time ago and I also "knew my Trajectory" (as Bobby Tomek mentioned) because I was shooting a good bit nearly every day back then.

quote:

How can you even get a decent group at 500 yards by estimating a 38" holdover for 5 shots. For some you might be aiming 35" over the target and others maybe 42" over, get my drift?

Yes indeed. Aiming at "air" is not conducive to accuracy.

quote:

What good did your drop chart do you? ...

In my case, it allowed me to Kill things w-a-y out yonder - after the Drop Chart was verified.
-----

quote:

Originally posted by Dave:
...I hear its acceptable to wound and maim varmints. ...My 2 year older neighbor Denny said he never claimed a groundhog kill if it managed to crawl back out of sight into its hole. ...

Hey Dave, Looks like you, Denny and I are agreeing AGAIN!!! A Kill is a totally different thing from a Wound. And a Kill is also different from a Killing-Wound - in my mind.

The reason I feel that way is real simple, not all my Kills have been clean. I remember the Killing-Wounds more than most of the Kills. Even now they make me pause and think about what caused the Bullet to go somewhere other than where it was intended to go.

The simple act of actually verifying the Drop Chart at the farther out distances highlights how minor problems(both controllable and those outside our control) can cause a single Bullet, or the entire Group to shift position. Once a person experiences the Point-of-Impact movement during Drop Chart Verification, it highlights how much the Bullet can move when the shooter believes he has done everything right.
-----

quote:

Originally posted by Dave:
...I'd bet those 6 fellas in your poll are after varmints. I wouldn't use the invective 'wound and maim' it that situation. Because I'm led to believe it's acceptable in that style of hunting where the shooting is fast and furious, hour after hour. ...

You might be correct. I'd mentioned in the beginning, "This really applies to folks who Shoot "at Game" beyond 300-400yds ...", but it is probably just as you said. I think I'll go down to the Varmint Board and ask them.

quote:

Originally posted by Rolltop:
...I am able to shoot 200 and I use a chrony to get my actual velocity and then use a drop chart ballistics program to get the drops for the next three hundred yards. ...I shot a buck once at about 400 and the bullet hit the rib cage dead center. Luck? Maybe, but it has been good for my hunting style. ...If I had a 500 yard range I'd sure use it!. ...

Hey Rolltop, I'm glad you were able to Kill that Deer. And I'm very familiar with how difficult it is to locate long distance ranges. I moved around a good bit when I was working and it always seemed that I was looking for a "new" place to be able to shoot.

Where I shoot now, I'd spoiled a few other folks because I'd go out and mow a Range into a large bottom with a limestone bluff for a back-stop. They discovered it through the land-owner mentioning it being there and all of a sudden, it saw a lot of use. They brought all kinds of nice things, like a very solid Table, a grill and some portable Target Stands. Then I got tied up this Spring and "they" had to mow it. The owner mentioned to me that I really needed to go see their mowing. My guess is way too many Emergency Beers got consumed.

With a bit of luck, maybe I can straighten it out today. But, all my shooting will need to be up-close, because my long distance Trigger Time has been totally absent.

?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
...I'd bet those 6 fellas in your poll are after varmints. I wouldn't use the invective 'wound and maim' it that situation. Because I'm led to believe it's acceptable in that style of hunting where the shooting is fast and furious, hour after hour. ...

Hey Dave, I believe you nailed it. I went down to the Varmint Board and asked 5-questions. Apparently they either do not know, or are so embarrassed that they won't admit that they count "Wounds and Misses" as Kills. Had 30 people look at the post and none of them even knew how many firearms they carry afield.

So, that should cut the "No" responses back to "2-more" than I expected, or 4 in total.
-----

For those of you interested in the answer to alf's question, PM me and I'll let you know. Once again, a simple solution worked great, but it took a bit more time than using a Lazer Range Finder.

I won't respond directly to alf because he refused to answer a simple question for me a long time ago about a Nosler Partition. Got a lot of blowharding, but never an answer. I eventually realized it was because he didn't know spit about what he was saying.

It does surprise me that he has managed to make a post and not include anything about people getting shot or Killed.