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I've never used any brass for my reloading but Remington with the exception of Hornady for my .416 Rigby. I have a load for one of my .300WM's (M70 Super Grade with 26" barrel) that has proven initially to be a MOA load or better. I however have a flyer on a pretty regular basis in every 3 or 4 shots. Two or three will be very close together if not touching and the 3rd/4th shot will be off anywhere from 1 to 2 inches. It's been suggested to me that I have a brass issue and specifically it may have to do with uneven necks. The solution was suggested to invest in neck turning equipment or buy premium brass (Norma, Nosler, Lapua, etc.) My question is have anyone else seen such a problem and improved it by buying this premium brass? I'm not opposed to spending the money on it, but would prefer to not to on a whim, hope and a prayer. Thanks for your replies. | ||
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2-part query ....
1st part ..... Yes, but I would initially look for a rifle/scope issue, as 1"-2" is a solid flyer, sounds to me like the problem is mechanical. Something bumping, scratching, moving & settling and then back to original starting point. Could be anything from scope, rings, barrel, forearm, action screws, the reason is ....
2nd part .....
No. Cheers, Number 10 | |||
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Appreciate the reply, but it's not the scope. Other loads that I shoot are still shooting well without the flyers. | |||
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I would be more inclined to try a match primer than premium brass. As mentioned by other posters, it is probably a mechanical issue, but flyers can be frustrating. Give the Fed 215M primers a try in your load. I have found that they tighten up groups in several magnum rifles. R Flowers | |||
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These rounds were loaded with 215M's. | |||
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If you suspect that your case necks are of even thickness then use one of the tools to check how concentric your bullets are loaded. Without the tool the only way is to roll the loaded cartridge on a flat surface and look for bullet wobble. I prefer the tool that checks for it. Another thing that helps to load the bullet concentric is a good seater die like Forster benchrest seater. I like it better them most other brands. | |||
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I agree with Smokin. I would look to Total Indicated Run-out (TIR). Case quality and prep are frequently overlooked factors. High quality cases such as Norma and Lapua will be much straighter than the more common brands. They will also be more weight-uniform, although this isn't as critical. A bench tool to measure run-out is not a big investment. I use an RCBS, but would recommend something with ball bearings. See Sinclair catalog. Measure cases both before and after loading. As Smokin said, an in-line seating die is a good investment. I like the Reddings. There is a good bit of advice on this in the VihtVouri manual, 6th edition, I think. Good luck. | |||
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SmokinJ / Brice, I guess I'll have to buy the run out tool. I do use a Redding Competition Bullet Seater. Have either of you seen where neck thickness variation would affect one load more than another? This is part of what I'm having trouble getting my head around. I use the same brass for other bullets and get good and consistent accuracy. I wouldn't be surprised by that, but I'd be inclined to think other bullets would show this issue too. | |||
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I've seen neck thickness variation affect the accuracy of loads. Here's something to think about. The bullet has to be as centered to the bore as much as possible. A few things will not help this. One is if the neck isn't sized concentric to the case. Another is if the neck thickness has variation from one side to the other. One more is how the cartridge lays in the chamber. If the case is minimum size the bullet will be at slight angle up to the centerline of the bore. Neck sizing is okay if you are sure the neck is sized concentric to the case. I kind of like partial full length sizing nowadays. If you neck turn you may end up with a neck that is too thin. The thicker the neck is the more it centers the bullet to the bore centerline. Also different neck thicknesses have different bullet tension and to complicate that even more so does brass hardness. Thing is to find the thickest necks you can and true those up with a neck turner. To me none of this matters for sporting rifles. The positives of neck turning shows up more in match rifle and rifles that have an especially tighter neck portion of the chamber. Bottom line is trying to get the most concentric loaded cartridge and cartridges that are uniform from one to another. | |||
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Concerning the concentricity, I use a Redding Body in combo with a Lee Collet die for the neck. What prompted this thread was the advice I got on neck turning and/or premium brass, the goal being to get a more uniform neck thickness. Your concerns about neck turning are exactly the kind of thing that turns me off to that operation as well as the time involved. I'd sooner buy the better brass if in fact that would assure me of better neck thickness uniformity. In the end however I could throw more money at this problem and not solve it.....gotta love this hobby of ours! Buying the neck gage tool to check this however I think is still worth it, at the very least I could use it to cull any extraordinarily bad brass. | |||
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Premium brass doesn't necessarily mean the necks will be uniform. Necks can become uneven through firing and resizing too! I like the Redding bushing dies and select a bushing that gives me the correct amount of neck tension I want and that solves over sizing that many full length and neck sizer dies do. The Lee Collet die, in my opinion, doesn't over size the necks. As mentioned I do like Forster's benchrest seater dies and have improved accuracy by using them. Sounds to me you should concentrate more on making the most concentric ammo you can and you may want to drawn your case neck (kind of like annealing but not as harsh as annealing) to even out the hardness of them. I don't believe in the annealing where, for example, you stand an empty case in a pan of water so the case is about little more then half submerged and then heat the shoulder/necks red hot and tip them over. That's dead annealing and the necks are too soft. The brass has to have some hardness to have proper bullet tension. | |||
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One thing that you haven't mentioned, have you looked at your neck wall thickness to see if the cases are uneven in any way? The proper way to do this is using a tubing micrometer to measure the neck wall thickness at several points around the case; but you can usually pick up .002-.003" or greater differences just by eye. Look into the cases after re-sizing them and see if the wall thickness at the mouth is the same all the way around the neck, or if one side looks thicker than the other. Find out if you have the problem before trying to fix it, | |||
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Just because a box of brass has the name premium on it does not mean anything specifically. Even worse is the assumption that somehow the brass used in the manufacture of premium ammo is somehow premium. Unless you can establish a quantitative way to determine one brass is better than another all you are doing is making assumptions. Some of the things you can easily affect is: 1. Size the cases to exactly match your chamber 2. Size them so they are square and straight. 3. Assemble the bullet to the sized brass so that it is straight. Premium brass will not correct other errors made in the loading process. | |||
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You may very well have "runout", or bullets that are not seated "straight", but that usually doesn't happen in the seating die, rather it occurs as a result of the resizing operation. Can you describe your resizing die and how you set it? However, when looking to the gun for a problem, there are many more issues than just the scope. The first place I look is at the tension of the action screws. Over time they can loosen for various reasons. Check their tension to make sure it is proper (about as tight as practical on the front one.) A bedding problem can show up with one load and not so much with another. The same is true of the degree and type of fouling in the bore. Just be sure to address all of the potential gun problems before spending a lot of time and money chasing a theoretical load problem -- especially if the same loading components and techniques are used on loads which shoot well in the gun. And remember, some guns just don't "like" some bullets and will keep producing flyers with them regardless of steps taken to address the problem. | |||
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If using fired brass from this rifle I: 1. Use a Redding Body Die first. I set it up, to just bump the shoulder enough to allow for easy feeding. This versus an RCBS FL resizing die setup where the instructions tell you to turn the die 1/8-1/4 turn in after meeting the shellholder. 2. Neck size using a Lee Collet Necksizer with a mandrel that I ordered to set the inside diameter of the neck to .303". 3. Chamfer and debur the neck and tumble. After tumbling the necks are brushed. If new brass, then I just use the Lee necksizer. Whether it be new brass or old, I've seen this same pattern 2-3 close, one of the 3/4 shot group "out" there. I don't believe the scope or gun has anything to do with this problem. Other loads that have proven to shot well in the past are still reproducible. Fouling doesn't seem to be a problem, in fact this gun shoots much better after 5-10 rounds through a clean barrel. In the end you may be right, the gun just may not like these bullets very well. I've certainly had my share of bullets a gun doesn't like, but I've not seen it like this. The groups are just bad with very few glimmers of hope where a couple of shots are close. | |||
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7mmNut ..... When flyers are as bad as you described, I would suspect a scope or bedding problem before looking at handloads. | |||
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Are these hunting loads? If so from what you say the first 3 shots are right in there at 3/4 inch and shots 3 and 4 open the group. In most hunting situations 1 or 2 shots is all you need. I think your problem may be heating of the barrel. This bullet powder combo heats yoiur barrel more than others. As the barrel heats up it moves and make contact with something some where. Shoot the rifle till the groups open up and slip a dollar bill under the barrel and see if it slides between the barrel and stock to within a inch of the reciever. With the barrel hot you may find a tight spot. Leo The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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This is a simple problem to research. When you shoot your groups, when you get your flyer, mark that piece of brass. Reload your ammo using your normal routine. If the same piece of brass gives you a flyer, the obviously the problem is the piece of brass. Discard it. If the flyer comes up randomly with any piece of brass being the culprit, then you have other issues. I'm not big into measuring a lot of stuff, but I do fire cull my brass as I go along. If I get an unexplained flyer, I mark that piece of brass and give it another chance. If it wonders on the next firing, into the scrap bucket it goes. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I load for long range (1,000 yards) and the neck diameters of loaded rounds on my Lapua brass measure .294" - .2945". My loaded rounds with Norma brass measures .293" - .295". The loaded rounds with Hornady brass measure .2925" - .297" There is on average about a 2" difference in group sizes between the Lapua and Norma brass using all identical reloading procedures and components at 1,000 yards. I haven't shot the Hornady brass at 1,000 yards. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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