I am planning on getting a neck sizing die to help extend the life of my brass. Which brand of neck sizing dies do you prefer? Is there any differnece in construction or how they work?

You`ll find three types of neck sizers, a collet die (Lee) that has a collet compress the case around a mandrel, a bushing type (Redding)that takes different diameter bushings to allow you to size the neck to your spec`s and the std crush type that everyone makes. The collet and bushing types need no lube in the mouth as they don`t use a expander. The bushing dies should be used on turned cases that have even neck thickness to work properly. The collet type sometimes, rarely in my experiance, has problems with thin brass and tension. The Std type work like any other FL die, except they stop sizeing ~0.1" from the shoulder and don`t touch the case body.

I do not want to turn cases necks, so I can safely rule out that option. Can't I get the same effect that standard type neck sizeing die produces by partial sizing with my full length die? Does the standard die expand the neck and then size back to spec? If I want to minimize working the brass in the neck area, I assume that a collett type die would be the best for my application. Is this correct?

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Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
The bushing dies should be used on turned cases that have even neck thickness to work properly.

Do you think this is why I have a problem with runout with Redding Bushing dies?

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The collet type sometimes, rarely in my experiance, has problems with thin brass and tension.

Is it a good idea not to turn the necks with collet dies or just be careful not to take off too much?

Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens.

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
I do not want to turn cases necks, so I can safely rule out that option. Can't I get the same effect that standard type neck sizeing die produces by partial sizing with my full length die? Does the standard die expand the neck and then size back to spec? If I want to minimize working the brass in the neck area, I assume that a collett type die would be the best for my application. Is this correct?

First off, I don't subscribe to the idea that you should only use bushing based dies with turned necks. I use Redding Competition Neck Bushing dies in several calibers with good results, and I don't neck turn. Of the standard dies, the Redding dies are probably about as good as you get. After that, you are into custom dies, or dies for arbor presses (Wilsons etc). However, even the Redding is no panacea for lack of runout. Redding has an interesting article on their website on this issue. Btw, Redding suggests you lube your cases, even when you use a Titanium Nitride bushing, say it stresses the case less during sizing.

Next down from the Redding Competition Bushing Neck sizing die in terms of quality of produced ammo is probably the Lee Collet die. It is famous for producing straight ammo, at considerably less cost than the Reddings. It does have its idisynchracies, though. It is not as easy to control neck tension with this die (some people say it produces too variable neck tension), and the die tends to be a bit iffy on workhardened cases. Turn down the decapping mandrel 0.001", and you are normally OK. If it works for you, this is the cheapest option in standard dies, and it does produce very straight ammo.

"Standard" neck dies are a bit more problematic. First, they work according to the same principle as most FL dies: size down neck a LOT, and then wrench the expander through to achieve final neck size. Not only does this work necks more (less tragic), but a lot of (most?) neck dies do not support the case well during the sizing operation, and thus leave you with a lot of runout. There are several options to try to minimize this effect, but IMHO it is worth trying a Redding or a Collet before you go this route. If you happen to load a caliber for which Reddings or Collets are not available, consider partial FL sizing as an alternative. FL sizing dies typically support the case better than NS dies. You'll still have to deal with the expander, but that is another story.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
I am planning on getting a neck sizing die to help extend the life of my brass. Which brand of neck sizing dies do you prefer? Is there any differnece in construction or how they work?

Concerning a hunting rifle,using neck sizing or PFLS or FLS,the brass wont last longer;where do you get the info. that Neck Sizing help exend the life of the brass; the subject was discussed in another topic...

"full size or neck size"page 7."neck sizing dies' page 8."resizing belted magnums page 9".

Woods, the need for turning necks when useing a bushing die is to obtain a set amount of compression / neck tension on the bullet. The idea is to shoot for a certain neck ID, not OD. That`s why the bushings come in different sizes. To reach this goal you need cases of even thickness thus they normally need some turning.
The necks DON`T have to be turned to have the die work, it`s just a step accuracy shooters use to insure even tension and minimal run-out. You may how ever find a bushing that works well with your 308 Win brass might have a problem with thicker military surplus for example.

The collet die works by compressing the case against a mandrel. When you thin the brass you in effect lessen the collets pressure on the brass. This can cause uneven or weak neck tension on the bullet, especially with older brass that wants to "spring back" to its old form, there`s just not always enough reduction in the diameter to insure a snug neck. Some people find they need to polish the mandrel on their dies to reduce its diameter ~.001" because of tension troubles with their unaltered cases. If you`re useing a collet die I`d stay with unaltered cases. (I do, and they work well)

My Speer reloading manual states that neck sizing will extend the life of my brass and possibly make it more accurate, due to minimzation of case stretch during firing and sizing (page 84 Volume 13). I take it from your post that here is some disagrrement on the subject. I'll read the other thread you mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
My Speer reloading manual states that neck sizing will extend the life of my brass and possibly make it more accurate, due to minimzation of case stretch during firing and sizing (page 84 Volume 13). I take it from your post that here is some disagrrement on the subject. I'll read the other thread you mentioned.

"Difference in accuracy,FLS against NS"page13."custom dies for belted cartridge"page 14.Neck sizing and runoutpage 15.

Take Lee up on their offer: If their collet die doesn't produce the most accurate ammo ever, send it back for a full refund.

I've got one for every rifle caliber except 416 Rem Mag. DG loads always get FL sized. Come to think of it, I've even got one for the 357 SIG. Very good product that has never given me one bit of trouble. And quite inexpensive too.

I believe the best neck dies are the Wilson die for use with an arbor press. They actually use the same bushing that the Redding uses.

I've just started using Lee Collet Dies and neck sizing until I get too much crush fit and then using Redding Body Die to move the shoulder back. Concerned about neck tension so ordered Lee Factory Crimp Die and will put a light crimp on neck for consistency of release.

Thinking about getting some washers to put on top of the shell holder under the Lee Collet Die in order to leave part of the neck expanded so case will center in throat.

So, Lee Collet Die, Redding Body Die, and Lee Factory Crimp Die. That's my plan. Will let you know how it works out.

The Lee Collet Die definitely give less runout than the Redding Bushing Die.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

I'm a big fan of the Wilson NS, bushing, knock out dies and have several sets of them. They produce very concentric reloads and are probably even better than the Reddings which I also use. Both will do the job nicely. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Two questions, not trying to hijack the thread.

1. What is runout?

2. Why do the normal neck sizing dies cost more than the full length resizing dies?

Wes

quote:

Originally posted by WesN:
Two questions, not trying to hijack the thread.

1. What is runout?

2. Why do the normal neck sizing dies cost more than the full length resizing dies?

Wes

Runout is the amount the case or loaded bullet deviates from being straight, or in-line, with the bore and case body. Kind of hard to put into words, might be easiest to explain by detailing the process.

I have a RCBS CaseMaster and it has 2 V shaped adjustable carriers that the case or loaded bullet is lain horizontally in. There is a floating point on a dial that comes down and bears on the case neck or loaded bullet. You then slowly roll the case with the pointer on the part of the neck that you want to measure (usually close to the opening) and the dial will show you how much the case neck is off from one side to the other. The dial will go up and down as the pointer floats on the brass. Usually measurements will vary from .001" to .008".

The theory being that the straighter the bullet is started into the rifling the better for accuracy. You can also put the pointer on the bullet and see how straight it is and mark the cartridge so that you load all your bullets into the chamber with the highest or lowest runout is on the same side. Questionable about whether it makes much of a difference. The benchrest shooters sometimes do it and call it indexing (I think).

The Lee Collet Die are actually quite cheap and are the ones that I use. IMHO, they produce the least runout anyway. Just don't bear down too hard on the arm or you might bust the aluminum cap.

Read the article by Barsness and it might explain better

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading_subpage.htm


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

[QUOTE]

Thinking about getting some washers to put on top of the shell holder under the Lee Collet Die in order to leave part of the neck expanded so case will center in throat.
QUOTE]

That will work, depending on how much neck you have to work with. Of course, by not touching your shoulders during resizing, you should have already acheived the same effect.

Actually, I use this method to make my .223 Collet die double for use in resizing .222 Magnum brass (for which no Collet die is made) by stacking the right thickness of washers on top of the shellholder to compensate for the base-to-shoulder difference in the two cases. Works like a charm, and despite the extra step of placing and removing the washers, it is still faster -- and cleaner -- than lubing and degreasing cases.

I have found that neck tension is usually a little on the light side with factory Collet dies, so I routinely chuck the mandrel in a drill and polish it judiciously with emory cloth to reduce its diameter sufficiently to give the neck tension I desire.

The great thing about Lee products is that they're so inexpensive that if they wear out, break, are lost, stolen, or permanently borrowed, you can just go buy another and still be money ahead compared to the premium brands.

You really don't need a neck sizing die to extend the life of your brass. Adjust your regular die to size the case just enough to be able to close your bolt with only slight pressure. You will have partially sized the case to custom fit your particular chamber and case life will be as good as with a neck sizer. I like Bonanza Bench Rest dies but RCBS, Redding, and Lee all make excellent dies.

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Originally posted by JBD:
You really don't need a neck sizing die to extend the life of your brass. Adjust your regular die to size the case just enough to be able to close your bolt with only slight pressure. You will have partially sized the case to custom fit your particular chamber and case life will be as good as with a neck sizer. I like Bonanza Bench Rest dies but RCBS, Redding, and Lee all make excellent dies.

Forster bench rest dies,their dies are very fine product.I reload as you described,PFLS,I dont know if you have a headspace gauge(if so) how much you set the shoulder back,with my rifle I cannot get one gauge to measure it.I think is possible to just resizing the body of the case without touching the shoulder,I cannot be sure I dont have a headspace gauge...

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
[QUOTE]

Thinking about getting some washers to put on top of the shell holder under the Lee Collet Die in order to leave part of the neck expanded so case will center in throat.
QUOTE]

That will work, depending on how much neck you have to work with. Of course, by not touching your shoulders during resizing, you should have already acheived the same effect.

This is for the 270 and 30-06 (long necks) and only when I need to relieve the crush fit and push the shoulder back with the body die.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

If you end up with a collet type neck die (like the Lee), make sure your press is mounted on a very solid foundation maybe a support leg with-in a few inches of the press. This die takes a minimum of 25 pounds of pull to work well, and if your press is not supported well, the table will bend while you are pulling down to get the pressure you need. Which makes me wonder...has anybody ever invented a "power assist" for a reloading press?

Lazy ole Bob

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Which makes me wonder...has anybody ever invented a "power assist" for a reloading press?

Lazy ole Bob

Yep, the HydroMec used to be (maybe still is) available that used a hydraulic actuator rather than a lever to operate the press. I've never seen a powered press offered for metallic reloading, but that of course is what the factories use.

Your observation that having a sturdy bench with the proper geometry is a good one. A press mounted out on the edge of a stand-alone table won't provide the solid platform you need; the leverage of the handle extending well beyond the table's base will cause the table to tip when heavy pressure is applied to the handle. For many years I used a bench with a base that extended well in front of the press handle. The bench I have now which is affixed to the floor and the wall is even better.