I mentioned in the introductory post that I need help. Now you will see just how seriously I am in need of assistance!
For starters, let me tell you about my set up. I am currently shooting a Thompson Center rifle chambered in 22-250 and using a 3-9x40 scope. I shoot using a bi pod and using a range bag to support the butt stock of the rifle some what, but the stock is also held firmly against my shoulder. I shoot while standing and leaning against the hood of my truck.
I have the ability to shoot out to 200 yards here in the back yard, but have access to greater distances. Lately, I have been shooting my reloads at 50 yards mostly, trying to het the best possible groups. On average, my reloads regularly produce groups about 3/4 inch at 50 yards. On a good day, I can reduce that figure to 1/2 inch at 50 yards, but not consistently.
My reloading set up is as follows: I'm using a Hornady Classic press and series 1 new dimension dies. I use a Hornady digital scale to weigh my 50 grain Hornady v max Bulletts and powder. I have had pretty good success with 36 grains of RL 15. I use Hornady case camfer and deburr tools, primer pocket cleaners and throat brushes. I lube the cases using Hornady's lube pad and lube.
I use a digital caliper to measure the length of the cases. I have tried a couple of different lengths, but mostly I have used the winchester cases trimmed to 1.912, which is listed as max case length in the Hornady 8th edition book. Then I seat the v max bulletts, sorted by actual weight, to an overall length of 2.350. I have been trimming the cases by using the chamfer/deburr tool, but this is getting tiresome. I hope to add a Hornady case trimmer to my tool collection soon.
I know that I am neglecting to mention something, and will likely think of what that is as soon as I post this.But this is all the information I can think to provide for now. If there is a piece of information you need to provide advice for me, just ask and I will try to clarify any misconceptions.
So now we move on to the cusp of it all, that being my numerous questions! Again I warn you before hand that these questions may seem "trivial" to the seasoned veteran loader, but are true mysteries to me. Also, these questions are in no particular order.
1 What is the difference in "trim to length" and the "max case length"? Is it ok to use any case as long as its length falls between these two numbers?
2 How clean should one make their primer pockets? Is it possible to overmclean them? Is it ok to try to round out flash holes that are out of round? Can you make the flash holes too large?
3 What exactly is crimping and how does it work? Should I crimp my 22-250 rounds?
4 When experimenting with trying to improve accuracy, what should I tinker with? Should I try different case lengths? Should I try a longer overall length or try different powder charges? Should I try all of the above or something else entirely?
5 I use Winchester large rifle primers. If I switch to a different brand of primer, how will this effect my rounds? Will it effect the rounds at all?
6 Aside from good solid marksmanship skills, what is the number one "tweak" to try to improve my accuracy.
7 I know that my rifle has several rounds through it, and that 22-250s burn out quickly. Is there something I can do to prolong barrel life? I know this rifle is still capable of very impressive groups, but realistically, what size groups can I get?
8 Why do I see more black carbon powder fouling from my hand loads than I do when using factory ammo?
9 What is a good realistic method to cleaning a rifle? What is the right way to clean a rifle used strictly for accurate target shooting when using hand loads?
10 When I trim cases and a case ends up 1/100 or 1/1000 shorter or longer than others, how big a deal is this? When seating bullets and overall length varies by the same amounts, how much will it change the accuracy of the group?
I would like to hear about any good resources, either on line or in book form that you might think useful.
Please understand that these are not all the questions that I have, these are just the first 10 questions that come to mind. To theseni will add another, that being, what size should my groups be? If you haven't read my introductory post, you should. I will add that is no way for a champion shooter to behave.
Anyone wishing to provide answers, comments, advice criticisms or comments may of course do so here or at my personal e mail: jaybald1@yahoo.com . I am looking forward to reading anything you care to offer.
Thank you all, very much.

It sounds like you have a pretty complete kit but before you can figure out what direction to take with your reloading, you need to brush up on your bench skills. Shooting acrost the hood of a car off of a bi-pod is NOT the best way to evaluate accuracy.
The only time I've cleaned or uniformed a primer pocket was to see if it made a difference in accuracy compared to uncleaned primer pockets. It didn't so I stopped that waste of time quickly.
You don't need to crimp 22-250 ammo.
The Max length of a case can be critical in that if you exceed it, the case mouth may impinge into the leade and create pressure problems. The Trim To length is kinda arbitary and is not critical as long as your cases are close to the same length.
The soot on your case necks can indicate a low pressure load or an improper powder.
Do you have a reloading manual? Many of your questions would be answered if you were to read the introductory section of the book a couple of times.

Welcome to AR & reloading

Couple of suggestions:

1. use the Find function, many of your questions have been discussed at length in previous threads
2. try not to ask more than one or two questions per post; you will get better & more detailed answers; no one is a expert in every single aspect of reloading, most of have learned from experience and will gladly share them with you, but few of us have time to sit down and answer your post as presented, I got as far as primer pockets and stopped,

To answer your ?, I seldom clean my primer pockets, as long as the flame can get through to the powder I doesn't care if the pocket is clean

What is important is that the pocket is uniform, that's a different tool than a wire brush, I use the pocket uniformer on all new brass

Welcome again

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jaybald1:


"I have been trimming the cases by using the chamfer/deburr tool, but this is getting tiresome. I hope to add a Hornady case trimmer to my tool collection soon."



Get the case trimmer sooner than later. Try different powder charges, with the same powder, start with the minimum charge and work up five rounds in .05 grain increments. Label everything, take notes, mark your target (5 shot group) with load data next to group for reference later.


Never make more than one change at a time.I would not shoot a 22-250 more than 5 rounds without letting the barrel cool down, you will extend your barrel life that way.

Min and max case length are set by SAAMI,they are normally .020 apart, with the "trim to" length being 1/2 way between them (some cartridges have the same trim to and min). So no, having a case that is a thou above/below "trim to" doesn't matter.

Use the OAL provided by the maker of your bullet, FOR that bullet (tweaking OAL is one of the final steps) than starting at Min powder charge (again from the bullet makers manual) work up in .5gr steps (I think the above poster inserted a 0 in the wrong place), 3 of each, until you reach book max.
Fire those for groups, selecting the charges that produced the best groups for retesting in 5 or 10 shot strings. Still not as good as you want? Try another powder.

If you switch primers, start off at the Min charge again, and work back up while looking for the groups to settle back in (or improve) from what you had before (it will normally be within a gr of what worked best with the old primer).

If you don't yet have a couple manuals, I'd suggest getting the Nosler and Sierra manuals (the LEE manual is (IMHO) only useful for emergency toilet paper)
Regardless of who's manual you use, study the information at the beginning of it (the "non-data" stuff)

We are getting some good information here, and I can see that I have come to the right place! I can also see that I have much to learn! Many, many thanks to everybody whom has taken the time to help.
A few clarifications:
I do have a manual, Hornady number 8 in fact. It does have a pretty good essay in the front of the manual, but it is short on detail, for me.
Also, if memory serves, it has mixed up the order of operations to prep cases. For example, it tells you how to/ and to, trim cases before resizing them.
Now I ask you, does that make sense? Will this not just change the length of the case again when working the brass? Ain't that like "wiping before you poop" (-Larry, Cable Installation Technician.)
On the other hand, SHOULD you trim, resize then trim again? Or, and perhaps more likely, am I missing something here???

Another often overlooked factor is how straight your reloaded cartridges are. Banana-shaped rounds will not perform well. Straightness is expressed as Total Indicated Runout, or TIR. RCBS makes a combination measuring tool that isn't too expensive. There are others on the market.

Squeezing your groups down the last 1/4" is where the challenges lie.

Before you get all done up with thingies, a simple test of how straight your ammo is is to shoot it. Shoot your reloads for group and any flyers that are not called out, mark the case. when you reload it and fire it, again for group, if it is still errant, toss it in the scrap bucket. I call it fire culling. There are enough varibles in a mass produced case that having enough thingies to eliminate all of them isn't possible. You're better off using your money to buy a chrony.

1 What is the difference in "trim to length" and the "max case length"? Is it ok to use any case as long as its length falls between these two numbers?

Maximum case length is the length beyond which the neck of the case is at risk of reaching BEYOND the cartridge shaped chamber machined in your gun and pushing up into the rifles part of the barrel.

Yes, it is OK to use any case between the two. But if using a roll crimp you will get irregular crimp pressure. So, in theory, variable velocity. Also if you are going to trim it is best to trim to the "trim to length" to begin with. Means cases go longer between needing a "haircut" again!


2 How clean should one make their primer pockets? Is it possible to overmclean them? Is it ok to try to round out flash holes that are out of round? Can you make the flash holes too large?

It is DANGEROUS to make flash holes too large! They may look just like a random hole but...ultimately they do affect the ignition of the powder and so the rise to peak pressure. On the cleaning of pockets it doesn't much matter on hunting ammunition as long as the new primer going in there bottoms. I'd clean maybe after two firings.

3 What exactly is crimping and how does it work? Should I crimp my 22-250 rounds?

Crimping serves a number of purposes: To stop bullets self-pulling out of the case under the recoil of the gun being fired. Typically large heavy bullets in revolvers. Think 455 Webley or 45 Colt. Second to stop bullets being pushed into the case either during the action cycling (such as on a magazine fed pistol or machine gun) or during rough handling. For that reason ALL military ammunition is usually crimped. Third to assist better ignition of the powder. The bullet is harder to "start" out of the case with a crimp so the pressure rises more so the ignition is more constant. Four to stop bullets being "knocked back" into the case in a tubular magazine in a rifle. The classic 30-30.

With your 22-250 the bullet is so light that unless you expect the rounds to suffer very rough handling I would not crimp.

4 When experimenting with trying to improve accuracy, what should I tinker with? Should I try different case lengths? Should I try a longer overall length or try different powder charges? Should I try all of the above or something else entirely?

Experiment with different powder charges...there will usually be a "sweet load" that is also, usually some way BELOW the manual's maximum load. Also GET ACCESS TO A CHRONOGRAPH and try the same load with different primers. Some primers give a smaller velocity spread between a series of five cartridges. That brand of primer will be the best for accuracy.

5 I use Winchester large rifle primers. If I switch to a different brand of primer, how will this effect my rounds? Will it effect the rounds at all?

YES! An potentially with dangerous results and also (see above) an affect on accuracy. Some primers are more consistent in shot to shot velocity. That is good. Some primers are hotter and so make the powder ignite differently giving higher pressure. Safe enough if using standard loads but if using MAXIMUM loads you must back off 5% and work back up with a change of brand of primer.

6 Aside from good solid marksmanship skills, what is the number one "tweak" to try to improve my accuracy.

Practice. Even dry fire practice - Use one of the new dummy cartridges OR the callsic solution buy an air rifle and practice with that. If you can hione your skills with that you will benefit when you use your 22-250.

7 I know that my rifle has several rounds through it, and that 22-250s burn out quickly. Is there something I can do to prolong barrel life? I know this rifle is still capable of very impressive groups, but realistically, what size groups can I get?

Ten rounds rapid heats the barrel. As it gets hotter it becomes less resistant to wear. So try to let the barrel cool down (enough so that you can hold it with a naked hand) between strings of shots.

8 Why do I see more black carbon powder fouling from my hand loads than I do when using factory ammo?

If that fouling is on the case neck it means that you loads are not developing enough pressure.

9 What is a good realistic method to cleaning a rifle? What is the right way to clean a rifle used strictly for accurate target shooting when using hand loads?

Some now say don't clean at all! I was "drilled" into always cleaning even if only ONE ROUND was fired...I learned to shoot full-bore rifle when corrosive primers were still the normal thing. Old habits die hard. But even then we were always taught to clean from the breech and to ensure that any cleaning tools had no grit on them.

10 When I trim cases and a case ends up 1/100 or 1/1000 shorter or longer than others, how big a deal is this? When seating bullets and overall length varies by the same amounts, how much will it change the accuracy of the group?

See my earlier amswer to your earlier question about case length and effect of crimp. For hunting ammunition if you do not crimp...not a lot!

HOPE THIS HELPS.

Jay,

First off, Welcome to ARF! This place is a veritable treasure trove of information and the vast majority (95%+) of the people here are just superb people.

Second: Good on you for enlisting the help of those who have gone before us! Not a day goes by that I don't hear of someone else doing exactly what I was trying to do...only doing it...well...right...

Third: Please consider filling out the rest of your profile. Especially the location part. For instance, if I knew you lived in SoCal, Anaheim area, I'd let you borrow my Hornady Trimmer and invite you to join me at West End for a chrono-test.

Fourth: Don't over-evaluate your groups...yet. Get practice shooting at 100 yards, then 200 yards, then (*IF you can) at 300 yards. Only start truly evaluating the minimalisms after you practice at those ranges. I can tell you from personal (and humbling) experience that just transitioning from 100 to 200 yards made a huge difference in my relative overall group size. I do say *IF you can: I'm horribly limited in gun ranges anymore...

The only other "thing" I'll mention is a test done with Handloader magazine a couple years back. Guy had a Cooper .223 and he wrote a series of articles on being absolutely anal-retentive on his reloading. He tested weight sorting, case trimming, neck trimming, flash hole cleaning and de-burring, and Lord knows what else.

The final answer represented something less than .2" at 100 yards...IF everything else was perfect. One of his best groups ever was shot with non-sorted, non adjusted, multi-manufacturer brass. In other words, he threw a bunch of mixed loads together and shot a sub .25" group.

Sometimes good ol' plain luck brings rain after the raindance.

Shooting prone with a decent rest, not to hard or bouncy, give me a lot better groups than standing with any rest. Much better effect than tweaking loads.

As mentioned in the otehr post - FIRST get the Lyman manual and read the chapters and follow the instructions step by step for 1 year.

KEEP IT SIMPLE TO START WITH. Avoid complication and confusion at the early stage.

Get into the right habit from the beginning. It is hard to change bad habits and you often do not know that you have a bad habit.

If you follow the instructions in the Lyman manual step by step without deviation you will be safe and you will make great ammo.

Yes ask questions - but READ THE LYMAN MANUAL FIRST!

Be safe & have fun.

I agree that getting the Lyman manual and following it exactly at first is a good way to go.

Let me touch on a couple things quickly.

1. KEEP IT SIMPLE. There will plenty of time to get fancy gadgets, and become so effective that you are developing benchrest type accuracy with every gun you own. Right now focus on the basic steps in an orderly fashion. WALK before you RUN.

2. Starting out use a recipe that is known to work well in what you are loading for. For example in the .22-250 H380 and Rem 9 1/2 primers are pretty well proven. Varget is another good powder to use.

3. Stick to the book until you are proficient and understand what the results of deviating can be.

4. Don't get hung up on great groups until you can shoot from a stable bench with sandbags. When you can really start to shoot well you'll be able to measure improvements in your loads. HOWEVER, if you or your rifle aren't capable of making tiny groups you can spin your wheels forever.

You may need a trigger job right away. I don't know much about Contenders. I had one as a pistol that shot way better than I was capable of so I couldn't judge it much. My .22-250 has been glass bedded and an after market trigger added. Mine shoots short bullets better than long boattails. So for instance a 50gr flat base over a 69gr HPBT Match bullet.
You'll have to try something to start with. Nosler Ballistic Tips get great reviews. Take good notes, you'll want to remember some things long after you've slept.

Last... keep it fun!

Your truck has a suspension system that can move every time you lean on it. With your rifle you have to change the contact of everything to load it and then assume a new resting position.
I would one:
1. Find a more stable platform than your truck to test ammo with.
2. Get a Hart rest to use with your new benchrest.
3. Put away the bipod for a while or throw it away. The money you save on load testing will more than pay for the Hart rest.

One other point - When shooting your rifle from a bench, remeber that the part of the rifle you rest on the sand bags will affect accuracy & point of impact. I always rest my rifle's magazine area on the sand bag and this gives consistency without any "barrel bounce" affecting accuracy.

If you rest the forend on the sand bags at the bench and then shoot another group when sitting on the ground with the rifle resting on your palm & elbow on knees, you may find a 1 to 2 inch change in impact on the target. If your rifle is glass bedded and free floated, then the change in impact is not noticable. So you need to really understand your rifle and how it behaves with differnt types of rests and ammo.

I want to say this thread has a ton of good information and I appreciate those who have contributed useful information.