Sierra bullet just lost a customer through *isspoor customer relations.

Today I was going to work up a Sierra 250 gr, 338 Match bullet load for my Lapua so I started measuring the ogives on a few bullets.

I measured about 5 that were all over the place length wise...INCUDING ONE THAT MEASURED 0.020" OVER THE REST at 0.835" using a Stoney bullet comparator and the 33 ring.

I've been doing this long enough to know there are always variations in ogive length so no surprise. I kept measuring until I had two piles, one that measured 0.816 +/- 0.002" and one that measured 0.823 +/- 0.003"...that is basically a 0.005" range and a 0.010" difference between groups in a supposed TARGET bullet. That is a bi-modal grouping statistically speaking and it means some machine went out of control...some machine operator wasn't watching.

I called Sierra's tech line to let them know their QC on this box had went to shite and to give them the run number and I wanted to find out if there had been any other reports for this particular bullet.


Basically what I got was "long bullets are hard to make" and the beginning of a tome on How/what to do about it. I told him I had measured ALL 50 and was about to give him the rough numbers when he said just send in the box.

Basically he said "I won't replace a box for a few bullets out of whack". He didn't seem to be interested in the run number except he wanted the box and the "few odd bullets".

The fact they were being cheap lost them a customer over the price of a new box of bullets and the tech didn't seem to be all that interested in all the wasted cost of components and work that goes into making target/long range quality ammo especially if all that is basically thrown away due to lousy bullets, not to mention the barrel wear....totally *issed me off.

He also didn't seem concerned and you would start chasing your tail when targeting because the bullets seating was all over the place...OK for hunting but no dammed good for long range work or trying to keep pressures uniform.

I had a problem with 2 boxes of 7mm 120 gr bullets, one box had 3 different ogive lengths and the other one 2 different lengths but were within 0.001" variation within the lengths. Hornady sent me two new boxes and they all measured +/- 0.0015" and said "group them and shoot them" basically.

I then measured 20 Berger 300 gr tactical target bullets and those measured within +/- 0.0005" of each other, 0.559" to 0.5595" and a box of Horn 285 match which measured within +/- 0.001" and my last 5 Horn 225 gr bullets which were +/- 0.0015".

Way back in the day I lived in Long Beach and used to buy Sierra "junk" buy the pound cheap enough to save about 75% on the cost of new bullets.

I buy lots of Nosler seconds because I can drive up there and pick them out...even those are within +/- 0.0015" with the odd one or two out.

Sounded like Sierra is falling behind because in todays CNC world keeping tight QC is relatively easy.

I'm definitely NOT a happy shooter.

Bullets made in two different point dies will rarely, if ever, have the same base to ogive measurement. If you a seriously interested in extreme accuracy, at long range, forget factory bullets and go custom. Sort of like every other serious LR shooter does.

PS, CNC technology has nothing to do with point up dies.

How did they shoot on target? Thats the real test. I did get 1 box of .243 Sierra 85gr hpbt that printed 3" groups at 100 yds, when normal for the same load was 3/4" Some seconds must have made it to retail. If you live near Sierra, you can buy seconds. Link

'Long bullets are hard to make'. Okay.
Then why did they just come out/produce a super long .308 'long range' bullet ?
I read a/b it on 6mmbr.com yesterday !

It may be a day dream ,but some day extreme range bullets will be FMJs with tungsten or uranium cores ; heavy and short ( E-Z 2 stabilize ) with great BCs. roger

good for you - quit buying sierras - leaves more for me

Yeah...Well DocEd...I've heard that story too many times and I've had just as much trouble with some custom bullets as I've had with factory and some of the factory bullets coming out today are MUCH BETTER than many of the custom bullets of the past...this 338 Lapua isn't my first LR rifle...and knowing Whatthehellandwhy is part and parcel of LR playing.

This whine WASN'T about Sierra NOT being able to make good bullets..it was about a Sierra tech being tightass over replacing a WHOLE box of bullets that had a bimodal distribution...doesn't matter that the pointing tool was replaced and not having the same ogive point...that is a given...I DO know how bullets are made...factory AND BY HAND...it is about them NOT separating the line and dumping TWO RANGES in one box and a single third that was 0.020" out and NOT standing behind their product...and the point I was trying to make went unheard as usual.

It's about a tech blowing smoke or whatever other reason he laid that bullshite on me for.

How would you like to blow a match because your shots suddenly started grouping some place out side your "money" shots or miss a shot of a lifetime because the bullet you happened to "just load up" was 0.020" longer and jammed into the lands and went someplace other than where you were pointing.

Butchloc...you can gladly have my portion of Sierra bullets...I bought a box of Barnes 338, 265 gr LRX bullets today that were closer in spec than a bunch of custom "stuff" I've bought over the years...The ALL weighed 267.5 gr +/- 0.5 gr, measured within 0.0005" on the Ogives, and +/- 0.0005" on the OAL and were 1.785" long...THAT'S A LONG BULLET and I will GLADLY pay the extra 10 bucks for bullets that close. Those numbers are as close to perfect as you can get unless you separate the hell out of them and group identically.

I DIDN'T TARGET ANY...I'm used to a few out of range in every box no matter what brand but NOT A BIMODAL distribution basically half and half...by the time you get something worked out the bullets are used up...NOT a good way to develop loads.

I used to live in LB CA and Sierra was close by and I DID buy lot of their JUNK...they basically swept up the leavings, scooped it up by the shovel full and sold it by the pound...you got cups in all shapes and draws, lead ends lead cores, bullets with partial cores and LONG spaghetti lead tips and NO cores just hollow, shaped bullets, dirt metal pieces, cigarette/cigar butts, etc...and some good bullets. Nosler is a nice drive away and I get lots of blems and seconds from them in plastic bags that don't seem to measure any different than store bought bullets...a few might be light/heavy or have strange ogives and OAL's but the segregated ones still shoot straight kill quick.

Today I also checked the "touching lands" point for both bullet ogive lengths just to see if that point stood up the numbers I checked yesterday. "Touching lands" point came out to average 3.74" and 3.75" +/- a few tenths each...0.010" difference.

I will use up these bullets dialing in my scopes...they won't go to waste...maybe some time in the future when I'm over the redass I will buy another box...for my 338-06 ...to see if they shoot any better than the 225 and 250 gr Horny's

Maybe while you were so busy with your "redass" you totally missed the very fine PRL bullets?
They were produced by Bubba Beall in Oakridge, Tn. They were copper cup jackets with Tungsten cores. Like the man said, "You don't like Sierra bullets? Don't buy them!"
That's why they don't only make vanilla!

Sierra is my go to bullet that has always been the most accurate in most of my guns. I have so many old bullets that I haven't bought any new ones for a while. Sounds like you are unhappy, so don't buy any more Sierra bullets. Big deal.

Jeeezzzz...I can only try ONE bullet brand at a time...I STILL have boxes of Sierra bullets I bought 30-40 years ago when I was buying AND shooting large quantities...MAYBE I just haven't had time to check out ALL the brands yet...you think of that???? I haven't gone beyond 300 yards yet so a tungsten carbide cored bullet is superfluous at this point.

Again...Ya'll MISSED THE POINT.

I don't think anyone missed your point. You called up a tech at Sierra that has probably heard it all and when he didn't immediately run into the shop and shoot several of the die operators and send you a cert for Sierra bullets for the rest of your life, you felt slighted.
One point you seemed to miss was the question: How did they shoot? Perhaps you're picking a nit that isn't there.

They don't care because they sell whatever they produce and don't care if they lose you as a customer. Someone else will buy them.

I'd rather shoot Nosler but I'm more of a hunter that only shoots targets to stay sharp for hunting season.

How do they shoot? Do you have two distinct groups on target?

If your attitude and demeanor was the same, with the Tech from Sierra, as it has been with all of us, no wonder you got the "Bum's Rush"!


You'll catch more flies with sugar than vinegar".

http://i853.photobucket.com/al...850001&1446508850754

This is a target with all the data for those that can read.

I bought another box of these "TARGET" bullets from the same store with the same run numbers...WITH THE SAME BIMODAL BULLSHITE DISTRIBUTION...25 with one ogive measurement and 25 with another at 0.010" difference...at least one distribution was within the range of one in the first box so I will have ~53 in the 0.0825" after shooting the one 3 shot target.


DO YOU THINK TWO CHANCES ARE ENOUGH????

All I did was try to give Sierra the information I found...WASBEEMAN...you need to get you head straight...I DID SHOOT SOME TARGETS...SEVERAL IN FACT AND I USED UP ALL BUT 3 TRYING TO GET A DECENT GROUP and this SURE THE *ELL ISN'T MY FIRST TIME DOING THIS load development/benchrest/target thing.


Some of you need to get your heads up and off my back...being "politically correct" was NEVER my strong point and I was just being direct and to the point...I think my "attitude and demeanor" are a figment of YOUR imagination DocEd.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS...HOW many of you would slink off with your tail between your legs if you got the wrong burger, the wrong drink or the wrong dinner at your favorite restaurant...How about different tires sizes on your vehicle...and HOW MANY TIMES HAVE ALREADY PITCHED A FIT WHEN YOU GOT THE WRONG WHATEVER...and HOW MANY of YOU would settle for seconds and expect to win a match...

Sierra does make very good, accurate HUNTING bullets that also do a very good job on targets but these were just *isspoor in their QC and I've already explained what I did with several other bullet brands checking THEIR QC.


When I buy a box of bullets fore a specific purpose I expect those bullets to meet a certain criteria and specification...ALL THE BOX not half and half.


ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE THAT EXPECTS THE SAME??? If you don't you need to take a reality check because your trying to blow smoke up someone's skirt...

FWIW, My head is straight and I can read. However, I have a problem with folks that whine.
As posted, if your attitude toward the tech was the same as your attitude in here, I'm surprised he didn't tell you to GFY and hang up on you.
I'll take up his slack by telling you to GFY and call it finished.

Yeah, Well...WASBEEMAN...DO you actually think I care what you think...or anyone else for that matter, I don't post information to get a pat on the fanny from anyone much less the ones who read into my posts something that ISN'T THERE.

You have NO IDEA just how the conversation went...there WAS NO GFY BULLSHITE GOING ON OR UNPLEASANTRIES...so take your pick of all the derogatoriness and smoke them...I've read many of your whines just like your last post and you're still going on about just how far you missed the subtleties and nuances I attempted to point out.

You want to point out something germane I'll listen and use it if it is worthwhile I don't care if I like you or not...good information is good information no matter who or where it comes from and bad information is just bullshite no matter where IT comes from.

I continually say you can lead a mule to water BUT NEVER make them drink.

I think the above tirade rather strengthens my opinion!

Yo'...Doc...where I came from and what I did for most of my life boiled down to either you kick ass or you lick ass...I normally DON'T BOTHER ANYONE, but if you do get in my face you give up any chance you might have had to negotiate...I learned long ago the best way to settle things down is to be standing and anyone else to be lying down...if you don't understand that you haven't learned a thing from my attempts at giving a lesson or reasoning...your opinion fits right into the California mentality of today and look what is happening.

AGAIN...you totally missed the point...re-read the first sentence of my last post and substitute your moniker for Beemans...maybe then you will get the point.

Anything else of a useful nature you want to discuss??? This tantrum throwing is getting boring.



Oh...by the by...just to add insult to injury concerning the Sierra "Target" bullets...I bought a box of Berger 338 cal, 250 gr Hybrids today and just finished the weight distribution sorting...19 @ 249.4 gr, 34 @ 249.5 gr, 41 @ 249.6 gr and 6 @ 249.7 gr...94 at 249.5 +/- 0.10 gr and I don't think those 6 - 249.7 grainers will cause much deviation on the target...I won't say just how close the ogives are...it will just cause you great pain...and the Berger's only cost 2 dollars more per 100.

The sage ratz are in for it next year...poor things can't hide far enough away from me now.

Wow, in addition to having a shitty attitude, he's a bad ass too.

"...you can't shake hands with a fist." Guy Clark.

Your "bad ass" macho attitude has scared me off for good. When I see you coming, I'll step aside.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:


It's about a tech blowing smoke or whatever other reason he laid that bullshite on me for.

Are you aware that there are people in this world that have a severe medical condition which causes them to be that way? My mother for instance is one of those people. She is a truck driver that has bad knees and a bad back from driving the truck but you probably do not care about that case either. Oh well I am not one of those people I am 6'4" 245lbs and I exercise every day. I would love to see you say something like to my mother in front of me. Probably never happen though you are probably just an internet tough guy. I doubt very seriously you would say that to someones face. Just my thought.What do you think. Oh I am sorry you probably do not have a brain. I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know.

Maybe I am missing something but my dies seat the bullets off the olgive. So at the end of the day you overall cartridge length and distance from the olgive to the lands will be consistent. The only value changed by the different base to olgive distance is the internal capacity of the case and this will be by a very small amount.

In August 2012 I got a tour of the Sierra factory in Sedalia. I was told the tour would take 40 minutes.
the tour I got lasted about 90 minutes. I was taken thru the entire bullet building process. I was very impressed with the whole thing.

Most of the machines were tasked with making 223 bullets, so from machine to machine I could see how the process went along. AT the jacket forming machine area I was shown how the jacket wall thickness was measured high and low with dial indicators to see that the machines were maintaining their standards. Tested one myself. Yes, the higher part of the jacket wall varied by +/- 0.0001", as required. And the wall thickness near the base varied +/- 0.00005". [hope I got that right]

The 30 caliber Match King bullets were being sorted by a lady who made sure I could look over her shoulder to see how she found and removed the blemished ones from the bullets passing by.

the tour guide answered all of my many questions well.... but once in a while he told me that "that information is given out on a need-to-know basis". I didn't need to know.

Later I was taken down to see their underground shooting range. 300 yards? the tunnel was long enough that the guys use a bicycle to travel down to the target area. pretty much state of the art.

My tour took place on a Friday afternoon, second shift. the employees were all friendly and helpful.

After the tour I went to the Factory Outlet and bought a pound of 7mm 140 gr bullets--50 to a pound--I was working up a load for a 7 x 57 I had sporterized. When I sorted out all the usable bullets my total was 124 bullets. Sorted em by weight. The majority were 0.3 gr short of 140.0.

Recently I emailed Sierra to ask their advice on a 30-06 load I was working up with one of their 150 gr bullets. The advice I got back was prompt, to the point, and useful.

I reload 4 different calibers. I use Nosler, Hornady, and Sierra bullets. They work fine for my purposes when I shoot worth a chit.

Really nice that forums give us a chance to rant.

I'm shocked this thread brought out responses from 2 guys that post an average of once a year.

the real question to the answer nobody was looking for... for the extra $2.00, why don't you just switch to Berger? They seem to meet or exceed your expectations for quality at a price that seems acceptable to you. I have had several good interactions with Sierra employees in a couple departments and have always been given patient, polite, respect. Attitudes tend to reflect. Just one persons observations.

quote:

I've been doing this long enough to know there are always variations in ogive length so no surprise. I kept measuring until I had two piles, one that measured 0.816 +/- 0.002" and one that measured 0.823 +/- 0.003"...that is basically a 0.005" range and a 0.010" difference between groups in a supposed TARGET bullet. That is a bi-modal grouping statistically speaking and it means some machine went out of control...some machine operator wasn't watching.

I have a bud, who has at least one President's 100 patch, and he weighs each Sierra Match bullet and claims he has found 150 grain and 190 grain bullets in 500 bullet boxes of 168 SMK's. Some of the low weight bullets were due to insufficient lead in the core, externally, the bullets looked fine.

I weighed enough SMK's to get bored. I sorted them out by tenths of a grain, and pretty much, that was all the weight difference I saw. Maybe I only weight sorted the good batch. I did buy Sierra seconds and they were all over the place weight wise. Sorted them out by half grain differences and the mid weight bullets shot well enough.

As I am a sling shooter, I put holes in 2 MOA targets, and bullet length has not shown up, for me, to be all that critical. I use SMK or Hornady bullets that are jump insensitive. I remember buds who were shooting outstanding scores with Berger bullets (some still are). Bud would tell us about their Berger bullets, we would "Oooh" and "Aaah" over some of their loaded cartridges, and the next time I saw them, they were not shooting Bergers. It turned out there was something about the bullets they were using that was jump sensitive. When the throat of their rifle eroded enough, which always happened in a match, the groups would go all to heck and that would be the last use of those bullets.

I do know that weight differences make a tremendous difference in group size, so does scratching the base, but I am not sure about length. So anyway, is your length difference simply a difference that makes no difference, or have you gone out and shot groups to show that it makes a difference?

I am in Sedalia once or twice a month. The majority of bullets I shoot for fun and testing loads are Sierra. I also shoot the Nosler blems. I have found no performance differences between either brand's blem or factory originals. They all shoot great. But then again, I don't make a habit of weighing them. If I shot matches, then maybe, but I am more concerned with just performance, not exact weight.

Years ago I had a 28" barreled 224 Clark.
I had bought a big batch of 69 grn Sierra hpbt match bullets. Working up loads, at 3900 fps the bullets turned into a white puff of smoke.
I called sierra hot line and asked what vel the bullets were rated for. The tech told me they would go over 4000 fps if there was something that could push them that fast.
I told him they vaporized at 3900 in my Clark.
He said, " well, your pressure is to high"
Not all the techs are on the ball. For what it's worth ( nothing) the OP didn't sound like he was whining, just relating what happened.

So don't buy Sierra bullets. Move on. Life is too short for this BS.

Back40, out of curiosity do you know the twist on your .224 Clark barrel?

Sam
it was a 1-9 twist.

About 10 years ago I bought a box of 100 nosler ballistic tips to test. The box had 99 bullets, and 3 were obviously messed up (missing tips, crushed in tips, etc.). I called them up and got the same sort of treatment you got. Those were the last noslers I bought.

Sierra is not that great, and almost as expensive as anything else. I guess the market now is such that anything you can push out the door will sell for a premium. So I mostly stick with berger or hornady. I've not seen any discount bullet deals worth the trouble for years...

Shame on someone, but I have to say that Sierra has consistently been among the most accurate bullets I have ever shot..too bad you can't or won't take advantage of that, and get passed a conversation with an employee..I have had the same problem in many gun stores wherein the sales person didn't know shit from shinola about guns, ammo, or his job, but thought he did. Im sure most of us have.

Its amazing how some folks can get bad accuracy or some kind of a problem with one bullet of a certain brand, and then say all bullets of that manufacture are bad bullets, that's just BS in the extreme..