what are some commonly used cartridges for long range shooting? like in the 500yard plus range?

223 Rem, 243 Win, 308 Win, 30-06, 300 Win mag, 6.5 x 284, 300 RUM, 338 RUM, 338 Lapua, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-338, 30-378, and many more. Probably the most common to 1000 yards is the 308 Win.

It's easy to get a bullet to fly 500 yards or more and with a little practice the shooter can become proficient at those range.

Just about any high intensity rifle cartridge can be used on paper targets at known ranges, though not many riflemen are capable of consistent hits. However, in the field, from varying positions at varying ranges, it is more difficult. In the vicinity of 500 yards, if range estimation is off 25 yards, the bullet will be nearly a foot higher or lower than expected. A gentle ten mile per hour crosswind will give nearly two feet of wind drift at 500 yards. The slightest change in the way a rifle is held can move the bullet impact by many feet. The chances of good bullet placement on game are just about zero, no matter how good a rifle or rifleman is. Even at 300 yards, you need a very stable position and a lot of skill to make consistent hits in the field.

"In the vicinity of 500 yards, if range estimation is off 25 yards, the bullet will be nearly a foot higher or lower than expected. A gentle ten mile per hour crosswind will give nearly two feet of wind drift at 500 yards"

KLN: You shouldn't believe everything you hear about long range shooting from others. Using a Nosler 150 BT at 3000fps, which is not truely a long range hunting combo, from 480yd to 500yd the drop difference is only 4.7 inchs, and the 500yd wind drift (10MPH) is 12 3/4 inchs. Now if we go to somthing a little more approprate like a 300WHBY launching a 220 MK at 2800fps the same wind drift is 9" and the drop difference is only 1 inch.

On the ethics question, you should go on a case by case basis. The guy that knows how his (tuned, if not custum built) rig and it's loads proform, under various conditions and ranges, and gets out to practice under those conditions at those ranges often, is not the same as 'Joe Sixpack' (who uses a full factory setup and shoots once a year at a 100yd pieplate target) trying the same shot. He also dosn't feel pressured or rushed to attempt the shot if conditions arn't to his liking, unlike our buddy 'Joe' does, when he starts blazing away.
Edit: I should add that it does take the 2 things that money can't buy, 'Natural Talent' and 'Experance'.

[ 08-03-2002, 17:20: Message edited by: Tailgunner ]

markus, I do a some long range target shooting. Most common cartridge on the firing line is the .308 Win, usually loaded with 155, 168 or 175 grain match bullets. Quite accurate even at 600 or 1000 yards. Interestingly the little .223 has become an excellent long-range target cartridge with the 80 grain bullets. I've seen it win at 600 and even at 1000 yards. The .243 with 107 grain Sierra matchking bullets is another one becoming more popular with long range target shooters. You don't need a super-duper thumper magnum to shoot long ranges, at least not for paper targets. Guy

m700.

How do you sett up for long range shooting. Biopod/rest/bullet/scope etc.

Johan

[ 08-03-2002, 16:00: Message edited by: 308winchester ]

The wind drift of the Nosler 150 BT at 500 yards in a 10 MPH crosswind is 19.8". This of course presumes that you know exactly what the wind direction and velocity are all the way to the target, which you cannot know in the field. The wind can change velocity and direction substantially over that distance, which is why target ranges have wind flags all the way to the targets and competitors spend much time and money learning to read the flags. Without the flags, and with any significant wind, hitting the target is a hopeless endeavor.

The drop difference of a 2800 fps 220 MK from 475 to 500 yards is 7", and there is not a person alive that can judge the difference between 475 and 500 yards in the field. I have not seen a laser rangefinder that would work at that range either, in the field.

The vertical deviation between a sand bag rest and putting your hand on the sandbag and under the rifle is in the vicinity of 10" at 500 yards with hunting weight rifles. Field shooting positions can give substanially more vertical displacement. You cannot plan on a sandbag shot in the field.

With a fair amount of formal training and fifty years of experience shooting rifles, it is my considered opinion that no one is capable of consistent one shot kills anywhere near 500 yards in the field. Most I have seen in rifle classes are not capable at 200 yards under field conditions. I know several Camp Perry competitors, and a number of Blackwater graduates who will tell you the same thing.

The range at which you should take a shot at game is that range from which you never miss a paper plate -- under field conditions, not on the range. For most of us, that is not more than 250 yards, and I would rather be at 100.

The drop difference of a 2800 fps 220 MK from 475 to 500 yards is 7", and there is not a person alive that can judge the difference between 475 and 500 yards in the field. I have not seen a laser rangefinder that would work at that range either, in the field.

There are many methods for ranging and a proficient long range shooter is proficient at ranging. There are poor techniques and poor equipment, both can be remedied.

With a fair amount of formal training and fifty years of experience shooting rifles, it is my considered opinion that no one is capable of consistent one shot kills anywhere near 500 yards in the field.

Absolute statements are nearly always a problem... There are many shooters that are capable of one shot kills at 500 yards but it's seemingly apparent that you have not met any, expand your circle of shooters/students/instructors and you may meet some.

Most I have seen in rifle classes are not capable at 200 yards under field conditions. I know several Camp Perry competitors, and a number of Blackwater graduates who will tell you the same thing.

Two things here, you should get out more often and meet more shooters and field conditions do not necessarily equate to poor shooting positions. If a shooter chooses to shoot from a poor position it's probably the shooter's error/choice, not something required by the field condition(s)

Trajectories are repeatable, wind conditions can be learned, shooters can opt to reposition for better results. Long range hunting is not the same as long range target shooting, in long range hunting there are no time limits and if things aren't correct the shooter can pass on the shot.

Years of experience does not directly equate to proficiency. Some cooks are poor cooks their entire life and yet they die with many years of experience.

Long range hunting is a very misunderstood style. I know....I ridiculed it for years albeit from a standpoint of ignorance.

While I agree that long range hunting should not be undertaken without the extraordinary arms, equipment, and skills, the LRH enthusiasts have PROVEN their ability to humanely take game at ranges I would never have believed possible.

When I go bug game hunting, I use a medium calibre 10# rifle and I'm a 300 yard sportsman....and then only if I can shoot from a supported position, e.g., stix, soft pack/prone, etc. Without support, I am a 150 yard sportsman. The reason I do not attempt LRH tactics upon big game is the lack of skill. I have been practicing the LRH discipline for only a year now and lack the ability to confidently take big game past the 300 yard mark.

Currently, I practice LRH on varmints, specifically prairie dogs. My equipment is moderately specialised and becoming more so as time progresses. I shoot primarily from a prone position with a bipod and shooting pad. Additionally, I carry a wind gauge, thermometer, and ballistics data to my location. This is the only way I can learn the ropes.

Last week I connected thrice at just under 500 yards with my 25/06. These were first shot whacks. And I couldn't have been more pleased!

The dedicated LRH crowd invest a great deal of time and money pursuing their style and I have had to eat a bit of shoe leather in terms of my initial opinions. The LRHs I have conversed with have been extremely responsible and ethical, (in my reality), with regard to game taking. Most of these guys have a particular animal picked out pre-season, the exact location of the prey and shooting position, yardage verified, and prevailing conditions studied. The extreme LRH folks generally use a spotter and utilise a sighting shot or two before taking their prey.

As a student of LRH, my heart is easy with regard to ethics. I am putting in the time and expense to learn something new and it is a field that REQUIRES focus and dedication.

A few weeks ago, I whacked a prairie rat at 356 yards, however, it was not a clean kill. I could see him bopping around but could not present a solution as the small knolls were obscuring him. It was obvious he was not going to expire rapidly so my only alternative was to walk out to the location and dispatch him with a 22 pistol. My rifle shot had grazed him on the top of his head. Whether he would have survived or not, I cannot say. Another shooter, not a serious LRH type, was quite perturbed that I went out and disrupted the dog town. It was, after all, only a prairie dog. If I had not done this, that damned rodent would have haunted me for days. Sound stupid? Whatever....I do what I feel is right. The day I start shooting animals without any sense of responsibility is the day I need to find another avocation, politics perhaps....

LRH is not for everyone and the premise will always be a controversial one as there are many myths about the practice.

Hunters are as diverse as any other special interest group and we should evaluate each other upon results, not emotional misconceptions based upon ignorance.

[ 08-03-2002, 21:44: Message edited by: Holmes ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Holmes:
[qb]The day I start shooting animals without any sense of responsibility is the day I need to find another avocation, politics perhaps....
Holmes: I appreciate your sense of ethics. Keep it up!

[ 08-04-2002, 06:54: Message edited by: PIONEER ]

Good post Holmes!

Homes

You did the right thing!

Johan

thanks alot guys. I own a 300 rum that i have tuned almost to the point that I am going to start attempting to learn to shoot longer ranges 300 meters is about as far as my local range goes but I know of a few areas where i could go out to 1000 or more in the bush (safely). I also own a m70 coyote in 243 that i have been working on but it doesn't shoot as well as my 300 ultra.

Anyhow I just wanted to know whats popular. I think once I graduate university I will pick up a m 700 vs in 308. But who can tell what i'll be into at that point.

Thanks for the help guys

Hi Holmes...good posting !!
I guess there are quite som few guys out there who could benefit from such a lesson.

I�m not a long range shooter my self, and have passed a lot of chances in the field when I felt uncertain about the range.
My skill is not up to it, mostly because of later problems with my eyes. ( Age are taking its toll I guess ).

I have one question though.
What about optics and reticles when doing long range shooting / hunting.
Will not a standard duplex hide/cover quite a bit of a deer out at 500 yards and beyond ?

If a deer were 15 inches back to brisket it would take a reticle that covered 3 inches at 100 yards to obscure a deer at 500 yards, definately a thick reticle.

I use a MilDot reticle in all my scopes and they don't cause me any difficulty when hunting big game. The "dot" in the MilDot I use is .25 MIL or about .7 MOA and would obscure a deer if it were more than 2100 yards distant, certainly out of range for me.

on this long range subject I will first state my experience so you know where I'm coming from. I am a NRA Master in High power service rifle competition, Presidents 100 and Distinguished Rifleman. The effects of wind take time to learn and in a field condition without a spotting scope consistent correct wind readings are almost impossible. We as sportsman cannot make light of a 9" wind correction as being slight,how do you hold off that much accurately, what if its a 4mph wind? What is your holding ability? A gut shot is too close to the wrong answer to any of those questions. Have you fired at 500 or 600 yards in practice? If you cannot dope the wind, get into a solid position, and hit an X first shot every time(the xring measures 1 minute) then you have no business firing at a live animal at that range. That said, I do not contest that there are people capable of this, they already know who they are and they practice it. But if you are asking questions today you are at least 2 years from doing it in the field. Take up highpower shooting and you will learn more in 1 year about shooting than in a lifetime of hunting, it does not all directly translate but there is noting like trigger time, I have fired over 4000 rounds this year. Would I do it? If I had practiced with the rifle ammo combination at that yardage, had a rifle capable(not from a box) and a coach watching the wind and animal for impact of a good or bad shot, then yes, but only if I could not get closer and felt another opportunity would not be feasible on that hunt.

You have excellent ethics KevinNY. I have really only been shooting for a year and have done a whole lot more target shooting than I have hunting. I'm more interested in learning to shoot at longer ranges than I am about long range hunting. But I am still at the point where I am still tuning loads trying to find something to work with at longer ranges. I have a pretty constant 3/4 MOA out of my 300 ultra but my 243 is very inconsistent still. I guess now I have to work on consistency in my shooting style. I have been planning on just opening up my distances to 200 or 300 meters to learn a bit about the wind and force better shooting style on my self. But there is no one in my area that I know of who I could get to actually coach me. After 300 meters I have to kind of find my own range and I have made my self a good gong. Oh I also have a leicia 1200 laser range finder. But as I said I'm kind of just teaching my self.

Long range hunting, means long range practice.
We had a guy in our camp that claimed that he knew exactly where his bullet would hit, at any range to 600 yards. He was a "minute of angle shooter" so he didn't need to practice at long range.
Now our camp has only shot one deer over 85 yards in the last 40 years, so finding a range to prove him wrong took some doing.
We took the boat down the lake,(uninhabitted) and anchored a javex bottle. He swore he could hit it first shot, and putting it there was going to polute the lake, cause he was going to sink it. Ten rounds later, he was making excuses. Near as we could tell, the closest he could get was ten feet away. The lake is settled between two ridges, and the wind, is always there, and shifts constantly as you move down the lake. One of his shots hit the water only 2/3 of the way to the target!
I hope that little story will get people out practicing!
Incidentally, shooting at water is a dangerous practice. At the range, and angle we were shooting, we felt we were reasonably safe.

Hey'
A 150 grain Nosler Baliistic tip with a co 0f.435,@3000fps,will drop 47.4 inches at 500yds,according to their manual.Not 4.7 inches.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com

1GEEJAY

Tailgunner posted "...from 480yd to 500yd the drop difference is only 4.7 inchs..."

The 4.7 inches he is stating is the drop difference for the 20 yard differential, not the total drop for 500 yards.

Dave King -

quote:

---

Some cooks are poor cooks their entire life and yet they die with many years of experience

---

A description of my wife
(speaking in the future tense, of course)

R-WEST

go to www.longrangehunting.com the wild rangefinder will work under any conditions and is accurate there are others that are more accurate at at about 3600 bucks,thanks,keith

Johan - I was away from this for quite a while, sorry I didn't get back to you. I see some of the others have shared some long-range shooting info though. Pay particular attention to the fellow who is a high master in NRA competition - shooting 4000 rounds a year in competition and training is a lot of shooting, and adds up to a lot of experience in a hurry. Your rifle has to be up the the job, a heavy barrel helps with consistency, but I've seen some sporter weight barrels produce good results at long range, so a heavy barrel isn't absolutely necessary unless you're going to be doing a lot of shooting at long ranges. I have three rifles I consider to be "long range rifles". Two are slightly modified Remington 700's, a Varmint Synthetic in .308, and a Sendero in 7mm Rem mag. One is a highly modified Winchester Model 70 with a custom target stock, 30" Krieger barrel etc. It's a shooter! Even better than my Winchesters or Remingtons are the specialty actions by BAT, Geske, Nesika Bay and others. Once you've got a rifle with good basic accuracy there's the matter of sights or a scope - again quality is very important if good results are expected. I prefer a Leupold 4.5-14 or a 6.5-20 on my long-range rifles. The mounts must be secure, and it's easy to spend a great deal of money on a good base and ring setup. Long range shooting may require a special long range scope base to allow enough elevation for 600 - 1000 yard shots. Although I've used a bipod, I prefer to rest my rifle on a soft backpack when in the field. The soft pack seems to produce more consistent accuracy. For competition I use a shooting sling to support the rifle. For long range target shooting I use Sierra Matchking bullets. There are others, but these are very good. For long range hunting I prefer Sierra SPBT Gameking bullets, or Nosler Ballistic Tips. These are the most accurate hunting bullets I've ever used. Needless to say all ammo must be carefully crafted and developed with precision in mind. Even with all the long range shooting practice I do, I'd be reluctant to take a truly long range shot at game in field conditions unless I had carefully determined the range and the wind. Regards, Guy

Thanks Guy.

Johan

Forgive me if someone has mentioned this and I've simply missed it.

At long ranges, another issue which is totally beyond the control of the hunter can become a factor.

Animals move. In the 3/4 to 1.5 seconds it may take the bullet to arrive, the intended target can move enough to cause a wounding shot.

Just something to consider...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Precisely why excellent shots could still miss. With a perfect rifleman, perfect rifle, perfect ammunition, perfect conditions, you still CAN NOT control the animal. I shoot to 1000yds at metal gongs. The bullet takes about 1.5 seconds to reach that distance. Enough time to recover from the fired shot and resight the target to watch the impact. That's a long time for a wild animal to stay perfectly still.