I have just purchased a K&M Neck Turning tool. How deeply into the shoulder should I remove material? I am attempting to make my new TC Encore 223 shoot some type of resonable group. Have been loading the Barns 46 gr. XLC, with 28 gr. of 748, and can not keep them in a 2 ft. square. I am now trying to get my brass right, and need some help. Nobody in this corner of West Tennessee is any help, not even a rifle range, so I am now the correspondence student of reloading.

I think you should first look at you scope mounts etc. if you are really getting that poor groups. Neck turning is fine tuning you need course tuning first. Doc Stone

Worried-

You may lightly cut into the shoulder. You want your cut to go past the neck shoulder junction a little ways and you don't want to remove much material from the shoulder. You want to cut into the shoulder just enought to eliminate the the "doughnut" often refered to in the literature.

If you got the K&M tool with the champhering mandrel, should you ever have doughnuts, you can clean them out by neck turning your brass again.

Hope this helps.

I agree with re-checking scope mountings, etc. Also, have you tried another scope of proven accuracy?
I disagree with the idea that the neck turn should cut into the shoulder. That creates a weak spot in the cartridge. To the shoulder not into it.
Have your tried any other bullets? I have never shot an X bullet but have read that some rifles just will not shoot them.

Turn once fired, sized brass and stop at just touching the shoulder. You want to know where your shoulder / neck juction is going to be so you don`t weaken your brass, this will help. The danger is, you might leave the neck of a case in your chamber if you cut too deep.

I agree with beemanbeme. I also have no experience with the bullet you`re working with but have heard the same complaints. I have found bullet and seating depth to be the most critical factor when looking for a accurate load. Especially in a non-tight neck chamber.

I will probibly get flamed for this but turning gives very little "bang for the buck" in a factory chamber. IMHO if the firearm and sights check out you probably will find more variation in how accurate your loads shoot by changing one these factors than all other brass prep, powder and primer changes combined.

I`d try a couple other bullet wgts and styles in a hunting style firearm before I turned necks.

The whole outfit is new, scope is Leupold 4.5X14 Vari X III, mounts are Leupold, base screws put in with thread lock, tightened down too. My standard 55 gr. Sierra HPBT loaded with BLC2, (normal varment load for my HBAR) shoots a 1' group. The 69 gr. Match king was worse than the Barns, but I expected that due to the slow rate of twist, tried them anyway just to see. Have been really watching my brass, and the case necks were not concentric. Have been useing standard RCBS dies, case trimmer, etc. for many years with my hunting loads in 243 and 7 mm Rem. Mag., with very good results. Guess I am on a mission to make the Barns work with the new rifle, so have been reading the Forum a lot. Had no clue how little I knew. Have started uniforming the primer pockets, useing a VLD reamer, uniforming the flash hole, (again, K and M, which I feel are really nice tools by the way). Partial resizing the brass to not set the shoulder back, which has always worked well for my other loads. I have two more boxes of the Barns, if I can not make them tune up, I may just stick to my old T&T Sierras.

The first loads I tried in my 22-250 were XLCs. 3-4 inch groups out of a 700VS were really good. That was after 2 calls to Barnes. You are supposed to start seating depth at .050 from the lands and go in to the case from there in .010 increments. I did everything you are doing. I Put a Nolser B-tip in that same load /brass and shot it. Groups went from 3-4 inches to .2 .3 for 5 shots. I got about 40 in my basment, if you want them. If you have a standard chamber and not using bushing dies, I do not think neck turning is going to make that much diff. I wish you luck. Necks on a standard chamber should be set so it only clean offs the high spots, do not get into the shoulder.

If you're getting that kind of groups, neck turning is not the answer. It is a fine tuning tool, as mentioned above.

Try a known good scope to eliminate the scope as a problem. Carefully check the scope mounts, barrel to frame fit and tightness, frame and stock fit and tightness, and forend fit and tightness to eliminate those as a source of the inaccuracy.

Clean your barrel down to bare metal. You may have a horribly fouled barrel. Then dump the XLC's, and try some load develoment with 50 grn ballistic tips, blitzkings, or vmaxs's and BLC2 or H335.

If you can't get any better results then, send it back to TC. Neck turning is not the issue here.

John

I agree with JT, you can certainly neck turn if that rocks your boat, but that is normally thought of as a means of shaving the last .01" off your group size - certainly in a factory chamber.

There are several reasons why people neck turn, some of the most common ones are: 1) to chamber brass in a tight necked chamber, 2) to reduce variations in case neck wall diameter. With a factory chamber, I doubt 1) is going to be of much relevance to you. As far as 2) is concerned, have you actually measured (neck variance gauge, or ball micrometer) variations in neck wall diameter?? I did not see any mention to such measurements in your original post - but maybe I just overlooked it.

There is nothing wrong with trying to prepare your brass as best it can be - including neck turning. Just don't expect to get great results if the problem is likely to be elsewhere.

Good luck locating the gremlin! - mike

I clean the barrel every 5 shots fired, (break in for new barrel, 200 hundred rounds fired so far), and again at the end of each shooting session. Having been in the concrete business for 30 years, keeping metal tools and machinery very clean is a must. (still use my original Master finishing machine, purchased in 1968) I have given up on the XLC's, and am now starting over with 50 gr. V-MAX. Actually, this run at getting this particular bullet to perform has taught me many things. (my lack of patience as limiting factor for one) Have loaded my own for 7 Rem. Mag., 243, and .223 for years, cleaned the brass, primer pockets, and stuffed 'em full and had great results. My standard .223 load performs fair in this new rifle, by the way, they are loaded with a Dillon 550, as I shoot a lot of them. Had a five shot group just under and inch after last session with the Barns, so am fairly certain that the scope was not acting up just for my attemps at the new load.

Neck wall thickness ran from .010 to .028. Please tell me how to accurately measure. My procedure was to set my dial indicator against a stud locked in a vice, and slide the neck over the stud. I was afraid that I could not get an accurate reading using calipers, as the radius of the neck would most likely give a bigger reading due to the "flat" nature of the caliper jaws. After receiving the K and M tool, I rechecked my figures by setting the dial indicator in it's prescribed place, and verifying my measurements. What should neck wall thickness for the .223 be? Pardon if I am asking stupid questions, I am truly new to this level of case prep.

If you have a neck wall that is .028" you have LOUSY brass! Dump it and start over. I'm not sure what the spec is for 223 but I'd guess .012". If the walls are that far off, can you imagine what's going on in the case? That's at least part of your problem.

After having time to really look at the brass I was using, I found that the 80 cases I was working this load with are very different than any other brass I have. Looking at the numbers for thickness just did not make sense. I checked some other .223's that I have and they were .012-.0170, no where nearly as out of equal thickness. Used the new tool to turn a few of the cases I had been using, and found that I could true it up at .009, with all the brass coming off of one side basically. That seemed too thin. Checked measurements on some other brass in .223, then my 7MM empties, both new and used. Found no other brass of any caliber over .019. Measuring every one of the remaining cases revealed that this group of W-W brass had one side of the neck wall much thicker than the other. The empties from

the other rounds that I fired, and which actually shot very well, did not show the same type variance in evenness of neck thickness. They rounds were loaded with RCBS Small Base dies, cleaned, run through my Dillon RL550, no real special care taken, other than safe loading practices. I bought the W-W factory ammo several years ago, ,shot it up at ground hogs with my H BAR, had never reloaded it, saving it for some project, which the Encore has turned into. I have 200 cases of new R-P brass, intend to start over with 50gr. V-Max. My old Hornady manual, does not have the V-Max listed, nor Benchmark,(which I see a lot of people like in .223). Does anyone have a good recipe for this bullet?

Also, I have the scope mounted with Leupold Quick Release, lever style mounts. I tightened everything well, used a pair of good pliers with leather inserts to crank the levers in. Nothing seems to have loosened, I used a thread lock on the base screws originally. Has anyone had any problems with this mount? Thanks in advance for any help on these, and I appreciate the info and advice on the original question.