I'm having my 223 rebarreled for 22-250AI with a 1 in 8 twist. I thought about it a long time and read a lot of posts before I decided to do it.

Some posts claim 3000fps+ for the 75gr A-MAX in a 223. Could this be true? Hornady lists max loads at 2700fps. This seems conservative according to the Sierra manual. They list similar velocities for similar loads, but load higher for maximum velocities of 2900fps. I found 223 cases became hard to extract approaching 2900fps so I stopped there. Are 3000fps+ possible? How many times can people reload for this muzzle velocity before the primers are too loose in their pockets to stay in? Wishful thinking, perhaps...

I've seen the 22-250AI shoot 3300fps. That's believable. Load for 3200fps and they're not overpressured. Ballistic performance is impressive.

I've read postings stating that Hornady designed the 75gr A-MAX for the 223. Yeah, and didn't want people to shoot it faster than 2700fps...

Comments?

I went through the same thought process, and came to the same conclusion: There is no substitute for cubic inches (centimeters in your case).

If you run the 3000 fps through a simulator, it predicts 70,000 PSI pressures. If you run the 250AI, it runs in the order of 55,000 PSI pressures. With my 223WSSM, it runs 50,000 PSI.

Bench rest competitors in bench rest actions are perfectly content shooting loads in the 70,000 PSI range, and piercing a primer once in a while.

Personally, I don't see the need to run that close to the edge. Unneccessary risks. JMO, Dutch.

3,000fps with 75s in a .223? Must be a looonnnggg barrel!

I use the 75 gr. A-max in my .223 rem., a Savage M12 FLVSS. With a case full of VV N140 I get just under 3000 fps. With Vectan SP7 I have pushed these bullets to just over 3100 fps. My standard load gives around 2900 in order to allow for variables like temperature. All these velocities were measured 12 feet from the muzzle and at no time did I experience sticky extraction or expanded primer pockets.

These are truely excellent bullets!

Yes, 3000 fps with a 75 gr. AMax is possible out a 223 safely atleast in my rifle (24" barrel). I use Vith. N540. I tested loads that chrongraphed 3035 fps with no apparent pressure. In my rifle it shoots the best at 2985 fps. My wife has shot that load in 500 yd. F class matches with good success. I can drive the 69 gr. Sierra MatchKing accurately to 3165 fps. with the same powder. If I ever shoot the barrel out of the 223 I am going have a new tube put on chambered for the 223 A.I. looking for 3100 fps plus out of a 26" tube. I bet it can be done. And barrel life would far greater.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

It will get to a 1000 yd and hit a 15" steel gong with fair consistency. I get no pressure issues with it. It shoots just a little flatter and drifts slightly less at both 500 and 1000 yds. than my Palma load using the 155 gr. Sierra Palma bullet in my 308 Win. at 2854 fps. I have loaded the brass 14 times and the primer pockets are still tight. My rifle was throated long just for this bullet. The comparator reading is 3.010" and it is .010" off the rifling.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight........RiverRat

Rat:

We play within some of the same circles when it comes to Ideas!

My powder of Choice for the 75 to 80 grains has been the less exotic, more available domestically H 380.

28 grains with Rem 7.5 primers. Lake City surplus brass. It is over 3,000 fps with a 24 inch barrel, with a 1 in 8 twist.

I also shoot another 223, a Winchester Featherweight in 223, with a one in 12 twist and a 70 grain Speer Semi Pointed bullet. This is my bullet of choice when hunting Larger than varmint game with this rifle. 28 grains of H 380 again gives me 3000 fps.

Before using H 380, I had used AA 2520 with good velocity and accuracy results. RL 15 is also a good powder in this class, with these 'over 68 grain' bullets.

I have noticed in a 22/250 that it took alot more powder to get not that much velocity increase.
Dutch, as far as pressure, I have no equipment but the H 380 load is not a real high pressure load at all. Not extraction problems, no primer problems or signs. H 380 is also user friendly for the little openings in a 22 caliber brass.

Seafire, you are right, H380 is a good powder for that bullet weight, and it sure does pour through a powder funnel into the case very well. The only reason I went to N540 is I got consistently lower extreme spreads in my rifle. I tried Varget and that didn't work at all. I sure don't know what other shooters see in that powder, but then maybe I just have a barrel that don't like it. I could get no accuracy at all. I agree you use a lot more more powder in the 22-250 for a little more velocity and greatly reduced barrel life. A guy I know is ready for this third barrel on his 22-250 and my 223 is still going strong. H380 is a darn good powder in a 308 with a 168 gr. MK easy on barrels and shoots bugholes.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat

Rat,

Admit I have never tried the Vitavouri? powders.
I love anything Finnish or Swedish, but they are not available as easily as the standard Hodgdon, IMR or RL powders.

H 380 is also a good light load ( 2600 fps) in a 270 or my favorite powder for my 338/06. Get some strong velocities and accuracy with it, while also minimal standard deviation on the chrony. Like 2600 fps with a 250 grain round nose hornady. ( 60 grs of H380).

Surprised it is not more popular, and like you can't figure out what is so dam "popular" about Varget. I personally think it is just H 4895 with some sort of additive to keep it from being temperature sensitive.

Seafire, Varget is not H4895, but you're very close. Varget is made by Australian Defense Industries (ADI) and sold here as AR2208. It has a burning rate that is 90% of H4895. We call H4895 AR2206. Other powders relabelled and sold by Hodgdon are AR2217 (H4198), AR2219 (H322), AR2209 (H4350 - my favourite), AR2213 (H4831), AR2217 (H1000), AR2205 (H4227), AR2218 (H50BMG), BM2 (Benchmark), and AR2213SC (H4831SC).
ADI has just released 3 new powders here. AR2219: a bit faster than Benchmark, AR2206H: between H4895 and Varget, and AR2225: between H1000 and H50BMG. Maybe Hodgdon will release 3 "new" powders soon?
AR2219 has some of the smallest granules of any extruded powder and meters very well in volumetric powder measures. Burning rate 108-110% of H4895. Great for PPC cartridges.
AR2225 has been developed for big magnums like the Remington Ultra Mags and the 30/378 Weatherby, adding 40-100fps more velocity than other slow powders. Burning rate 52% of H4895.
Australians and New Zealanders buy more of these powders than anything else (Kiwis also like sheep...). The marketing pitch is that they were developed by ADI for insensitivity to changes in ambient temperature. What I've found is they produce fairly consistent muzzle velocities, whether it be 15 degrees Celsius (60F - winter) or 45 degrees Celsius (115F - summer).
Contact Phil Hodgdon if you want any information about our favourite ballistic export. He's a very helpful person.

I know there have been many Palma Matches, and High Power championships have been one with won with Varget but I swear I have found no use for it other than taking up space in my powder storage cabinet. I have tried Varget in the 223, 260, 308, and the 300 WSM wiht 155 gr. bullets and it didn't work to my satisfaction in any of them. The 308 was probably the closet to satisfactory but good old IMR 4064 was better with the Palma bullet in both the 308 and the WSM and N540 was better yet. RL-15 and H4350 EXT was better with the 175 MK in my 308. Since we are talking powders Benchmark is another one I can not get to perform either. I dumped the the remaining powder in that bottle on the lawn hoping it would kill weeds or make the grass grow better or something useful. The smith that builds my rifles keeps a good supply of Vithavouri powders on hand so it is available here, as well as the domestic powders.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

Riverrat,
what kind of brass are you using? You seem to be getting excellent results with it.

micmac:
I am using Winchester brass in my 223. It has been very good. But like I said the load shows no excessive pressure in my rifle or it wouldn't last like it has.

bjld:
I if you will read my posts over I was trying Varget with the 69 gr. Sierra MatchKing and the 75 gr. AMax. and N540 is even slower than Varget, and far superior in my 223 to Varget. I sure has hell don't think Varget is that great in the 308. What I said is Varget came the closest to working my 308's than in any other chambering I tried it in. And I said IMR 4064 is better than Varget and N540 is better than both in my 308's and several of the other local shooters 308's.

Maybe Benchmark was developed with the 223 in mind and Nosler lists it as the most accurate powder tested with their 55 gr. bullet but it sure won't shoot in my rifles with any bullet I have tried it with regardless of caliber. When I tried Benchmark I always tried it with a bullet weight that had chance of working with Benchmark's burn rate. I never tried it with heavy for caliber bullets. It has just always given me terrible accuracy and extreme spreads in the 100 fps range in match preped brass and trickled charges not dropped charges in ever chambering. I trickle my barrel fouling rounds won't drop charge nothing PERIOD! Not even barrel brake in rounds PERIOD. Every one is trickled to the last kerrnel of powder. I want to know what I am shooting not some drop charged load. And when I tried Benchmark in my hunting weight 260 it was with a 85 gr. Sierra and the 90 gr. Speer TNT not a 140 gr. bullet. I use the proper burning rate of powder for the bullet being used. And after checking the yard today it don't kill weeds or make the grass grow either.

I do agree that H4350 EXT is a great powder. I have changed from H4831 SC in my 260 using the 142 Sierra MK for my longline match rifle. And I am getting 2754 fps with extreme spreads for 5 shots averaging 16 fps. That is an average of five 5 shot strings. So we do agree on that and like I said earlier H4350 EXT is one hell of a powder with a 175 MatchKing in a 308. And when I found a good load for the 90 gr. TNT in my 260 it is with H4350 EXT. I know that is a slow burning rate of a 90 gr. bullet but it darn sure works.

I really like Hodgdon powders, I just happen to have had the no luck with either Varget or Benchmark. Benchmark is the worst powder I have ever tried.

Sounds like you have a great shooting 6.5 X 55. I love the 6.5 bore. Have a great day!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat

Rat;

I know you and I think a lot alike. We differ on the Benchmark powder tho. I shoot it in a batch of bolt 223s. It does excellent with the 40 and 50 grain bullets from Nosler and also with the 52-53 HP match bullets. Don't shoot it for the 55 grainers, as I use another powder for that, but my 55 grain loads are bulk bullets, and low velocity powder on purpose ( Blue Dot).

However, in my experience and recommendations to others that have been having the inaccuracy problems with Benchmark, is the amount of powder in the case. If less than 27.5 grains are used, accuracy declines a lot. It really likes 28 grains a lot for accuracy. The difference is dramatic.

I did play with it in my 260, but prefer other powders. It was fine in the accuracy dept, but just overall liked other powders.

Just passing on some of my experiences in case you haven't tried this out. Good luck.
Seafire.

RiverRat, I sure didn't mean to get your back up, mate, but there are many unwashed who rely on a powder thrower. Even in the Sinclair reloading manual they talk about getting benchrest quality throwers. They talk about using the same technique EVERY time eg tap the lever twice at the top of every stroke, face east, scratch your left elbow, think of yor mother EVERY time etc. Why don't they suggest using a powder trickler? With the obsessive attention to detail of benchrest shooters I would have thought tricklers were essential, and perhaps forceps and a scalpel for cutting granules in half!
I've heard that the British Palma Team used N540 but kept their ammo in an ice box to keep the temperature consistent, because pressures varied too much when the ambient temperature changed, and affected precision. I've also heard recently that they switched from Varget to Benchmark because too much variation was turning up in pressure between lots of Varget. But these are just stories I've heard at the range, not necessarily fact.
I tried Varget in my 6.5x55 when I was breaking in the barrel. It was utter crap. I didn't chronograph these loads, but the groups were stringing vertically across 3MOA, indicating an enormous spread of velocities. I put it down to the very low load density for that combination. I loaded some H4350 at a minimum load and put 9 out of 10 shots into 1MOA at 800 yards that afternoon and haven't used a different powder in that rifle since, although I have upped the charge. I think Varget would be good for the 85-90 grain projectiles in the 260 and 6.5x55 (in some rifles), but I think Benchmark is too fast. Know what I would try first in my rifle for this weight projectile? H4350!
Happy shooting, RiverRat.

Seafire:
Point well taken on the Benchmark in the 223. I did not try it with anything but the 55 gr. bullets. I have never shot the 40 gr. in my rifle, and I use N133 with the 50 gr BlitzKing. It shoots better than I can hold it. If I hadn't dumped it on the yard I would try it with the 50 grainers just to see what happens.

The closest Benchmark came to working for me was in the 260 and the 90 gr. TNT. Unlike the 223 with the 55 gr. and the 308 with the 110 and 125 it showed good accuracy in the 260 with the 90 gr. TNT that repeated not just an accident on paper. But like the other cartridges, the extreme spread was in the 80's and 90's. I just can't accept that. H4350 EXT shot as good or slightly better with extreme spreads in the high teens to low 20's for five shot strings. I respect your experience and views. You have obviously shot alot. Strange thing about rifles, your 260 likes IMR 4064 with the light bullets, and mine didn't but mine loves IMR 4064 with the 120 gr. Sierra Pro Hunter. Have a great weekend!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.....RiverRat

bjld:
Sorry I got my back up as you put it. Never heard it put that way. It kinda reminds me of a cat and I hate cats.......LOL I should not have done that. On these forums one can not assume at what skill level the one posting has or performance expected of handloads. If you are shooting near MOA at 800 yds. you obviously are doing things right.

I am like you, it is beyhond me how benchrest shooters can rely on dropped charges. I have tried and tried to drop charge powder. But I can't get anywhere near the consistency I demand. I use a Redding Benchrest powder measure and take all the care I can and the charges will vary + or - .5 gr for 20 charges dropped for most powders. H380, Win 748, BL C-2 will do a little better than most but I just don't shoot them much. I know there are a better powder measures out there, but knowing me I wouldn't trust them and would trickle anyway. It may be I am just anal about detail when it comes to reloading.........LOL.

I personally haven't had temperature variation issues with N540 and I have shot it in temps ranging from the low 20's F. to above 90 F. I have seen across the course and long line shooters put their ammo in coolers just to keep it out of direct sun and keep it from heating to high temps in the summer sun. I don't do that but I do keep it in an MTM case guard box with a thin sheet of closed cell foam in the lid of box and keep it covered with a white towel while I am waiting for my relay or if I am in the pits. Shade seems to none existent on a firing line. If I am testing loads I always set my ammo on the porch but out of direct sun light so it will ambient temperature when I shoot it. And I always log the ambient temp in my data book. That way I know.

After trying Benchmark and IMR 4064 with the 90 gr. TNT, H4350 EXT is what I tried next and like I said in the previous post, that is what shot and shot very well with decent extreme spreads. Can't wait to bust a coyote with that load. Have a good weekend!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.....RiverRat