Ok here is my little dilemma.

I was out shooting my 7-08 this afternoon at the 300 yd range.

I have two spotting scopes which I was trying to use. Either I don't know how to operate the spotting scopes or my eyes just don't like them. One of the scopes is a Leupold Sequoia 20-60X80mm and the other is a Nikon Spotter 16-48X60mm.

I was using the common orange peel targets that flake the black off and reveal the orange once the bullets contacts the target. Even with both of the spotting scopes I had a hard time telling exactly where the bullets were impacting. For some reason, I was having a hard time getting the scope to steady on the target for a good clear picture. I wear glasses and would take my glasses off to look thru the scopes, which were focused and clear with the exception of unsteady movement making it hard to look thru the scopes.

So, I've worked up some 204 loads using the Audette ladder method, but have NO idea of how I'm going to be able to precisely identify point of impact without heading down range to the target every time. This is the problem, especially if another member will be present.

I truly think the unsteadiness of the spotting scopes is what is causing my problems with seeing down range. (Both scopes were set up on tripods.) Any ideas or suggestions about what I can do?

Thanks,

If you mean tripods that sit on the ground then IMO that's your problem. The little short tripods that sit on the bench have been much steadier for me but the typical photographer's long-legged ground tripod was wobbly. For ground use you really need something like a photographer's Bogen or a surveyor's tripod.

Of course I've also found that my eyes aren't nearly as good nowadays as they were even a few years ago.
Regards, Joe

Thanks Joe,

It is one of the little tripods that sit on top of the table, probably 10", or so, at it's lowest setting from the top of the bench.

Thanks again,

Spotting scopes have never done me much good at the range when shooting 300 yards or more. I still take one but leave it in the bag. I can see bullet holes much better with my scopes, especially the 14 power Conquests.

Also I make my own targets that show bullet holes



out of poster board, carpet mask and cheap black paint. I have used these same targets for 3 years now and you just repaint the holes with paint and keep going.

Hey graybird, For a few years I was used to using a buddy down-range to verify and mark the shots. We used a Flag to communicate with each other when to move to the Target. Then small Radio Shack walkie-talkies came into being and for about $4.95(a long time ago, early `60s) you could get a Kit and build your own. So, $10 and we were really in business. Of course today, the small radios are a bit more expensive, you can talk 12-15 miles with them, and they are no longer Kits, but the new ones will work fine. I know of nothing which beats this for the really long distances.

An additional advantage is you do not need to know where the Point-Of-Impact is located. For some folks that reduces the mental pressure on their shooting and allows them to be more relaxed while shooting. Or, you and your buddy can have Spotter Targets marked with Grid Lines and communicate the exact POI using them. AKA Engineer Paper.

If you go this route, there must absolutely be a low spot or Berm for the down-range buddy to get below or behind. Standing behind a tree is nearly worthless to our Big Game Loads as Bullets plow right on through.
-----

For the closer Targets, I think Mr. Woods is on to something with his home-made Shoot-N-See Targets. A great idea.

Concerning your Spotting Scope moving , the higher the Power, the more noticable the "shake", be it from an errant breeze, or your eyebrow making contact. If you have a taller Tripod available, you can try weighting it down to steady the movement. I like to use a Lanyard hooked to the top of the Tripod, run it around the back of my neck and then back to the Tripod where I hold it with one hand. The other hand I use at the eyepiece between my forehead and the Spotting Scope. It takes a try or two to get the Lanyard at the right distance, but if you go just a bit short, you can allow it to slip just a little with the hand controlling it and it basically self-adjusts.

Best of luck to you.

Don't touch the spotting scope. Mine is so sensitive that merely resting my hand on the adjustment knob causes a quiver.

In 1983 I organized and ran the highpower rifle competition (NRA Cross the course) for our local gun club. Our range was limited to 200 yards and we had no pits, so targets had to be shot and scored "on the frames". That is, the entire 22 rounds slow fire prone (2 sighters and then 20 shots for record), then we would go downrange and score the targets.

Therein lies the problem in that, often, the bullet holes in the black could not be seen at 200 yards with even the best scope on the line. Shooting blind was not conducive to decent scores, so we (individually and collectively) began to experiment in upgrading both individual and club equipment.

To make a long story short, I went through 3 scopes(Inexpensive Bushnel,more expensive Unertl,and what many HP shooters at that time considered to be the top of the line, Kowa). The results, no silver ring. None of these scopes would reliably spot .30 caliber holes in the black @ 200 yds. and beyond. The problem was the heavy mirage we experience in S. Texas.

The quest did not end w/my personal scope. I convinced the club to invest in a Unertl 100mm Team Scope. Now this is the scope used by US All Army Team, so it must be the very best; right? It is about 3ft. long and came in a chest the size of a footlocker. The tripod is of the type used for surveyor's transits. Still no prize! Can't see .30 cal bullet holes @ 200 yards. Yes, there were days when we could see the holes with the team scope, and I have even seen .30 holes in my target @300 yards with both my Unertl and Kowa on a good day, but not in S. Tx.

The solution was the club sold the (expensive) team scope and a few years later, we built a 600 yd. range, complete w/target pits. Problem solved.

As has been stated, best solution is a spotter downrange (safely dug in).

By the way, the higher the target and spotting scope is above the ground, the less mirage you will experience and the clearer you can see. Another tip, the higher power magnifies mirage more than it does distant bullet holes, it seems.

Another thick you might try is to place a bright colored "backer" several feet behind the target (far enough for sunlight to hit the backer). Suggest an orange color so as to contrast w/your black bullseye and white target.
Regards,
hm

That why we use markers at 300 yards for our events. Seeing Little Bitty holes at long ranges ain't gonna happen.

Now we need to design a wireless camera system for clubs to use so each shooter can see his target up close.

When me and my brother can't se where the bullets hit, 1 will stand down by the target ofcourse outta the way while the other shoots. Its because we trust each other, been hunting togethor for a long time.

I like Wood's idea.

When I shot the Audette test at 500yards recently, I thought I would be able to see the holes and mark them on my sheet of paper at the gun, noting the velocity, location and # of the shot with the associated charge weight. At 300 yards I am able to do this shooting at 8 1/2x11" white paper. I was using a buff colored sheet that was larger on our 1000 yard range's pit targets and I couldn't see the holes even through my spotting scope. I drove back and forth with every shot.......it gave my barrel time to cool!

The only problem I can see with the Wood's method is that the bullet seems to tear off a lot of the paint. If you are shooting a graduated charge weight ladder, you may have a problem noting the impact of some of the bullets if they are close to one another. I think for general sighting in they would be great!

I guess that is part of why I never use black and white targets, if I can help it. I don't shoot competition and the red and white makes the holes much easier to see. As you can see even in woods' target, the bullet pass-through makes a nice black ring I can see easily at 200 and 300 yards with my Tasco 20x60 scope.

For the jitter, I set the scope to "look" just a little lower than the target and just put my hand on the tripod control arm and it tightens up pretty well.

A few years ago Rifle magazine supposedly conducted some tests to determine the best target colors. They cam up with a medium blue, and for a time offered them for sale. I tried them and liked them but haven't used them in years now.

I know some folks who use closed-circuit TV for spotting, maybe a cell phone camera could be adapted?
Regards, Joe

Take your laptop to the range with a wireless web cam.
A programmer geek told me the wireless web cams will reach that far now.

If you are of the old school it is going to take 900 feet of USB cable.

I wonder if I could talk my wife into letting me set up our video camera in front of the target? That should take care of everything.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I like Wood's idea.

When I shot the Audette test at 500yards recently, I thought I would be able to see the holes and mark them on my sheet of paper at the gun, noting the velocity, location and # of the shot with the associated charge weight. At 300 yards I am able to do this shooting at 8 1/2x11" white paper. I was using a buff colored sheet that was larger on our 1000 yard range's pit targets and I couldn't see the holes even through my spotting scope. I drove back and forth with every shot.......it gave my barrel time to cool!

The only problem I can see with the Wood's method is that the bullet seems to tear off a lot of the paint. If you are shooting a graduated charge weight ladder, you may have a problem noting the impact of some of the bullets if they are close to one another. I think for general sighting in they would be great!

Hey rc

Before I gave up on the Audette and before I started making my targets, I used to use Shoot-N-C's


and yes, I did learn that bullets will rise with successive increases in velocity. Wait a minute, I already knew that!

If you use good paint instead of cheap paint it will show a smaller hole


The best idea is to just get a great scope, I have spotted 22 caliber holes in white paper at 300 yards with my Conquest. Resolution and clarity is the key and rifle scopes are less susceptible to shaking like a spotting scope.

Well, I spoke to the wife about my great idea of putting the video camera down range to tape my shooting session.

She responded with one of those raised eyebrows, sign of disgust, "NO!"

Then a short silent pause followed by, "Not until you download the videos that are already on there."

Therefore, the next time the wind is minimal, the 204 will be headed to the range and I'm going to try my luck with the Audette Method using my new downrange buddy.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Then a short silent pause followed by, "Not until you download the videos that are already on there." ...

Outstanding! You sure have a "keeper".

I'd be real interested in how well it works for you. If you could repost your results to this thread, or even PM me, I'd appreciate it. I can't see why your idea wouldn't work great.

How long will your Camera run once you start the Recording? Does it have different Recording levels(size, pixels)?

I was just looking at a D-DSLR camera the other day which "claimed" it would Record a flick for an hour on Small resolution. Surely a person could get Mr. Audette's (never improved upon) Load Development Method done in an hour.

Best of luck with the Test.

My solution for "solo" load development work is to make up as many targets as loads to be tested. Numbered to match the loads. I use 81/2x 11 graph paper with a round red sticker in the center.
Mount all targets on the backer board. Shoot the rotation one shot per target. Then I go down range, collect the targets and analyze them.

muck

Well, I ended up making it to the range today and used the video camera to tape a shooting session.

I was shooting my 204 Ruger at 300 yards.

The reason for using the video camera was to determine if it could be used as a tool when needing to determine shot sequence at long range without the aid of a down range spotter, etc.

So, here are the results. Don't mind the tilted view of the target, I didn't have the video camera level. The first shot will be at about 10:30 on the lower target right where the yellow paper meets. The remaining 4 shots are on the yellow paper. I think I'll be using this method in the future when long range bullet sequencing is needed i.e. Audette Ladder Method. What do you think?

Edited: P.S. You might need patience with the buffering of the video! Don't ask me why it takes so long!

Hey GrayBird, It looks great to me. Much better than having someone down range like I'm used to.

Had some friends come in to visit over the weekend and they had a new "Flip" MiniHD CamCorder. They said they selected it specifically because it Recharges through the Flip-Out USB connection and do not have to be concerned with any Batteries.

Never crossed my mind about your Test. But it would be an excellent choice to do the same thing you are doing. Plus, you could even "hear" the Impact, which I suppose you can with your's as well.

Be sure and Thank your wife again for me. You had a GREAT idea which she allowed you to verify.

HC,

Yeah things worked out pretty well, I thought. You could hear the sounds of both the shot and the impact on all the video I shot yesterday. I know the video camera will be headed with me whenever I'm headed to the range and shooting at longer distances. As long as you can be sure of hitting the target and not your video camera, there shouldn't be any issues!

Just another tool that might benefit others, if they have a video camera available.

Thanks,

kennedy says

quote:

When me and my brother can't see where the bullets hit, one will stand down by the target, of course outta the way, while the other shoots. It's because we trust each other, been hunting together for a long time.

If your brother can hit a one-inch sticker at 100 yards, he ain't gonna endanger you one bit. My friend and I do the same thing. We just stand a goodly way to the side of the target and let 'em fly...

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
and yes, I did learn that bullets will rise with successive increases in velocity. Wait a minute, I already knew that!

No, you didn't. Re-phrase that, it sounds horrible.

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:
kennedy says

quote:

When me and my brother can't see where the bullets hit, one will stand down by the target, of course outta the way, while the other shoots. It's because we trust each other, been hunting together for a long time.

If your brother can hit a one-inch sticker at 100 yards, he ain't gonna endanger you one bit. My friend and I do the same thing. We just stand a goodly way to the side of the target and let 'em fly...

All of this is fine if you have a buddy that shoots with you, AND the range you are shooting at allows for a down range partner.

For myself, I don't have a buddy I shoot with on a regualr basis, AND there is absolutely NO ONE down range when the range is HOT!!!

quote:

...the range you are shooting at allows for a down-range partner.

In rural Nevada, we go a few minutes out o' town, find ourselves in the desert, set up and let 'em rip...

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:

quote:

...the range you are shooting at allows for a down-range partner.

In rural Nevada, we go a few minutes out o' town, find ourselves in the desert, set up and let 'em rip...

That would be nice to have that flexibility, which I could take advantage of, if I still lived in Oklahoma on our farm. I could always head into the mountains about 45 mins away, but I choose to use the range about 5 mins down the road.

quote:

I choose to use the range about 5 minutes down the road.

I got one of them, too. 600 yards. Same distance away, too. Only open on Sundays from 0800 to 1200. Only thing about it that sucks. $30 a year to join for the year. Pistol range and four concrete benches for rifles. Never have to wait to shoot. Love it!

The video camera idea is a good one. I have a digital one that will record for seven hours on a full charge. Never use all that up out on the range. I'd set it up to have a close-in view of the target so as to really see what's goin' down downrange...

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
this is fine if you have a buddy that shoots with you, AND the range you are shooting at allows for a down range partner. ...

Where I shoot right now has a normally trickling creek running behind the Targets with a tall bluff just on the other side of the creek. It would be possible to hang the Targets on the Bluff, put a buddy down in the creek with a chair and his head would be a couple of feet below the upper edge. Walky-talkies or cellphones would do to send info back and forth. And no chance of the guy in the creek getting hit.

However, I still like GrayBird's idea even better. The last time I went to that spot, I was alone. Got all the stuff out of the truck and heard something Large coming over a Bluff behind me. I was thinking a World Class Trophy Buck had just got unlucky, or pushed toward my "truck" for easy loading. Nope, was a guy stumbling along carrying a 6-gal bucket. He was headed to the creek to seine some minnows from a deeper spot. He said he would be 90deg from where I was shooting about 1/4 mile away and he would be fine.

I kept looking toward where he went and knew the land slopped down there. No chance at all of the Bullets going in his direction. Kept nagging at me. Shot one time, realized the concentration was non-existant, packed up and am waiting for another warm day.

GrayBird's idea is similar to some of the Ranges where I've shot that had live cameras near the Targets. They worked great, but were way too expensive and not portable. This really is better money spent for most folks than totally wasting it on a chronograph.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

300 yards and a 7mm bullet? A good spotting scope should be able to show you the hits on one of those shoot-n-c targets. I use this to mount my spotting scope-when I use one-it's better than any tripod short or tall.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/pr...5531/Spotting-Scopes

If your rifle made bigger holes, it would be easier to see ...



500 Jeff, 100 yards ...



Chuck

.

Nice !

Shoots a 1/2 inch group with every shot.



.

quote:

900 feet of USB cable

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
If you rifle made bigger holes, it would be easier to see ...


500 Jeff, 100 yards ...



Chuck

True, but it might be a bit rough on the shoulder lobbing 500 caliber bullets 300+ yards at prairie dogs. I think I'll stick with the 204 for this application.

Hey GrayBird, Are you still around?

I spotted a "Key Chain Mini Video Camera" at Cheaper Than Dirt for $29.97. Their Order # is SPY-204, uses an SD Memory Card and records up to 1.5hrs. Looks like a regular old Key Fob. May be cheaper elsewhere, but I thought of this thread when I spotted it.

Hot Core,

I haven't used the video camera in quite some time, but it did work for my intended purposes.

I guess your mini key chain camera could work as long as the field of view is appropiate. Resolution would be something else I would question. Mounting it to something to get the video might also be a bit of a challenge, since I could use my small base tripod with the video camera.

Give it a try and see how you like it!

found a bunchy of IP battery operated cameras pretty quick on the internet, only issue I saw was range of only 300 feet or so...seems like someone who knew how to increase the signal distance could chime in, a cool solution for real time viewing can't be that tough or expensive I'm guessing....

cameras and stuff

Hey Fish, A person could get a "few" of them and set-up Camera #1 to look at the Target, back off 300ft and set-up Display #1. Then set-up Camera #2 to focus on Display #1, back off 300ft and set-up Display #2. Then set-up Camera #3 to focus on Display #2........

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Hot Core,

I haven't used the video camera in quite some time, but it did work for my intended purposes.

I still think you have a very "understanding" wife to let you do that.

quote:

I guess your mini key chain camera could work as long as the field of view is appropiate. Resolution would be something else I would question. Mounting it to something to get the video might also be a bit of a challenge, since I could use my small base tripod with the video camera.

Give it a try and see how you like it!

Totally agree. As I mentioned in the PM, it didn't say in the description if it is a "Click-On and Click-Off" or if the Record Button has to be constantly held down. Of course that can be whipped with a Rubber Band or small Clamp. Plus a Tripod or some kind of support(sharpened car antenna) to get it aimed at the Target.

The plus side of what Fish mentioned is you get to see the Holes "Real Time"(to see the Harmonic Nodes form) if the distance could be stretched between the Camera and Display, just as he mentioned. With the Video Camera, you have to see the Holes as they are appearing on Target at home.

Not sure if I'll get one, but if I do, I'll let you know.

My shooting buddy came up with the idea to make our shoot and see targets to use at 300 yds several years ago.Was at the range to zero my muzzleloader in from 100 to 300 yds and used this one so I could see where I was hitting with it.
You can see it has lots of holes in it but you just paint over them and have a new target.
You don't have to use black you can use any color and they show up real well.
The first one is where I zeroed the muzzle loader which is black and the next is a green color. If the card board has a white side to it we use just clear shipping tape from the dollar store and a can of flat black paint.If it doesn't have a white side he found us some white plastic tape we cover the target with and just spray paint.
The second target is green I just used a reg green paint on it.we have used red and yellow paint but like the black a little better.

IME the key is really good glass. With my good Leupold I can spot 7mm holes at 300 yards, and on a good day, I can see them at 400.
At my range the cartridge black powder boys can spot their holes at 500m but they spend $$$$$ on their spotting scopes.