I attained a number of Norma once fired cases. When looking at the price tag on the boxes it seems to be dating back 25 years. Is it necessary to anneal these cases due to ageing? Your advice is appreciated!

Unless it is really rare brass I wouldn't bother

But others are known to recommend it.

Reloader I would suggest you anneal the necks. I have purchased some 25 yr old new brass only to find that about every third case would split on the neck when fired. Stopped that pretty quick and annealed all the cases. Brass then performed like new brass.

Twenty five year old anything is like new to me; I have not had a problem with old brass, but if you do, then anneal it, as stated above.

Annealing might help but it wont hurt, so go for it.

quote:

Annealing might help but it wont hurt, so go for it.

+1

It is Norma brass. As you say annealing would not hurt. Thanks for your advise.

Brass that old are "Work Hardened" just from sitting all these years,it just happens. Some folks call it getting "brittle" Same for lead bullets. They get harder with age.
The quality of the brass is a factor as well as the brass alloy.
Anneal the brass and you will get a much longer life out of your cases.
When in doubt,anneal,it can't hurt.

Yep, when in doubt anneal.

My favorite '06 brass is FA gov't brass from the 30's. Nice fine grained brass alloy, very consistent dimensionally- rather like modern Norma stuff. I have a lifetime supply of it, mainly gotten from guys who were afraid of it because of its age. I anneal the neck/shoulders as a matter of course before using it, and haven't lost a single case as a result. (I likewise like 50's-vintage gov't brass but it's not quite as good as the stuff from the 30's. Wartime brass is structurally ok but dimensionally all over the map, particularly in necks- necessitating reaming/turning, and weight sorting for internal consistency.)

I have tons of brass from the 60s and 70s; none of it has cracked yet. I think chicken little is warning about things that rarely happen. And I shoot WW2 ammo, both 30 and 50 cal; never had a split neck. Never.

Several years ago, I lucked into 5 boxes of new, unfired, Herters brass for my 222RemMag. This brass was supposed to have been made by Norma or Hirtzenberger for Herters. This is not the Cabelas Herters stuff.

After the first firing, I had some split necks.

I then annealed every piece I had left and have not had a problem since.

I have some Kynoch factory ammo dated 1963 for my 404 and back in the early 80's, i.e. ammo was 20 years old, I would get some neck splits on about one in five cases on firing. I have some unfired 'new' RWS 404 brass still in packets from the late 70's and I sure will anneal these before using. Annealing is such a simple process it is not worth risking good brass such as Norma for want of this step before loading.
I anneal my Norma, RWS and Kynoch 404 brass after every second firing now to preserve these valuable cases.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
Annealing might help but it wont hurt, so go for it.

On the contrary, I've seen plenty of brass ruined by improper annealing. It can be made about as resilient as wilted lettuce if you get it too hot.

Like dpcd said, 25 years old is on the new side compared to some components I use regularly. I would not bother annealing unless and until you experience some problem that indicates that the necks are way too hard/brittle.

Im in the try it first camp. If a couple split then you can anneal. If several split then is wasnt much good in the first place. If none of them do then you're good.

The cheat here is to use melted pure lead. Very good anneal is around 650 F as I recall and lead, PURE, MELTS at 600 or so. Alloys melt lower. Much lower. Real good thermometer and you can boost the heat a bit. Dip, less primer so lead gets in easy, the area to be annealed. When it is too hot for your fingers drop into water. Luck. Happy Trails.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
Annealing might help but it wont hurt, so go for it.

On the contrary, I've seen plenty of brass ruined by improper annealing. It can be made about as resilient as wilted lettuce if you get it too hot.

Like dpcd said, 25 years old is on the new side compared to some components I use regularly. I would not bother annealing unless and until you experience some problem that indicates that the necks are way too hard/brittle.

There seems to be enough evidence posted here that some brass over 20 years old can be at the point of splitting when loaded and fired, of course it can depend on how well annealed the brass was when new.
If someone can't follow simple instructions and anneal cases without 'ruining' them, I suggest they should not be attempting to reload. I don't know why the reluctance to annealing from some when there are at least 10 or 12 other steps involved in reloading ammunition, all that can affect the quality of the reloaded ammo and some down right dangerous if not done with care and attention. A couple of these steps are cosmetic but commonly done by many reloaders. Annealing is done by all factories making cases and does need to be repeated if wanting to get long life and often more consistent neck tension which can translate to better accuracy.
I see it as just one of the steps to produce good ammunition and retain expensive or good quality cases in use.

Shucks, I've got and use '06 brass head stamped in the /40's without any problems. Generally I just load n shoot it til it does split then it goes in the scrap brass bucket.

Until I got a bunch of unknown used 7mm and 300U/mags to make .358's out of I never annealed any brass. Five hundred of them at a buck each used and split about 40% of the first 60 I annealed the rest and never had another split.

It's sure not very technical. Just torch the necks til the color starts to change and drop in a can to AIR COOL. Don't drop in water as that rehardens it. Study the metallurgy books and you'll find air cool softens, water hardens ALL metals. Whoever came up with the water drop has sure given a lot of folks the wrong info.

George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Shucks, I've got and use '06 brass head stamped in the /40's without any problems. Generally I just load n shoot it til it does split then it goes in the scrap brass bucket.

Until I got a bunch of unknown used 7mm and 300U/mags to make .358's out of I never annealed any brass. Five hundred of them at a buck each used and split about 40% of the first 60 I annealed the rest and never had another split.

It's sure not very technical. Just torch the necks til the color starts to change and drop in a can to AIR COOL. Don't drop in water as that rehardens it. Study the metallurgy books and you'll find air cool softens, water hardens ALL metals. Whoever came up with the water drop has sure given a lot of folks the wrong info.

George

With due respect you are wrong about quenching, copper, silver and brass can be quenched quickly in water without affecting the softening (annealing process). Brass anneals with the heat and quenching has no effect on this other to to prevent heat transferring down the case which you do want softened.

As those that anneal and quench in cold water know, the process works fine and cases are suitably softened in the neck/shoulder area and do not crack. If quenching in water reversed the annealing process we would all be scratching our heads

I have some RWS 8X68s brass. Brand new and years old. Loss due to neck splitting on first firing is about 30%. I annealed all of them, the remaining unfired and once fired cases, no more neck splits. So I say rather than risk losing them, anneal them.

Id toss them unless they are a rare hard to find caliber..they may work and they might not, since you don't know the history of brass that old..but to each his own.

Yep. Cooling annealed Brass by dropping into water changes nothing on the annealed neck. Now if they were steel, you would have a point.

If you properly annealed brass after each firing it would last forever, you would never have to buy another case! I actually tried that for seveal years with a box of 30-06 and a box of 30-30s. I finally tossed them because I could not ruin them..

That might be a good reason to buy an Annealeeze machine if I were a young man..but I can't possible live long enough to shoot what ammo I have on hand.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Shucks, I've got and use '06 brass head stamped in the /40's without any problems. Generally I just load n shoot it til it does split then it goes in the scrap brass bucket.

Until I got a bunch of unknown used 7mm and 300U/mags to make .358's out of I never annealed any brass. Five hundred of them at a buck each used and split about 40% of the first 60 I annealed the rest and never had another split.

It's sure not very technical. Just torch the necks til the color starts to change and drop in a can to AIR COOL. Don't drop in water as that rehardens it. Study the metallurgy books and you'll find air cool softens, water hardens ALL metals. Whoever came up with the water drop has sure given a lot of folks the wrong info.

George

Well George you are right about one thing, someone has their facts mixed up. and I think it is you. When you heat and then quench a ferrous metal you harden it. With brass or copper heating and quenching SOFTENS the material. On a cartridge you want the case head to be hard to resist expansion. The middle can be softer and the neck and shoulder area should be quite soft so it can readily expand and form a gas seal between the case and the chamber wall of the barrel. The first annealing process I seen was put out by Norma about 50 years ago. I still use that procedure. It told you stand the empty cases to be annealed in a metal pan in approx. 3/4 of an inch of water.Heat the neck and shoulder area with a small propane torch until the brass just starts to glow a dull reddish colour. Then tip the case over into the water. The 3/4 inch of water protects the case head from being softened and softens the neck. If you overheat the necks to a nice cherry red the necks will be very soft and may not hold a bullet tight enough on a hard recoiling rifle. If that happens all is not lost. Resize the case , Load and fire those cases with a plinking load. When you resize the case again it will had work hardened enough to hold a bullet as well as it ever did.

Lately, brass for my 257 Roberts has become really scarce! I have enough stored that I won't have to worry for the rest of my life, but I have decided to try and make my brass last as long as possible.
I anneal, but on a fixed income, cannot afford one of the marvelous whiz-bang devices on the market.

John Barnsness did an article in either Handloader or Rifle magazine, and I clipped it for my reloading file. He has a friend who is a Metallurgist, who experimented with a simple, cheap method of annealing. He used Tempilaq to determine heat levels, and discovered that a household candle, sold in packs as emergency supplies, created enough heat to anneal a brass case. As in the lead method, you hold the brass case about halfway up the body, and rotate the neck in the candle flame until it becomes uncomfortable to hold, then drop it onto a wet towel. (Helps with clean-up, sez he.) It seems to work, and I know you have to choose your experts very carefully. (Mine have been Jack O'Connor, ED Matunas, and John.) I'll probably not know until (if) case necks begin to split. I have thought to anneal every 5 reloadings, but maybe sooner, like every 3...It's just case prep, and I LOVE case prep!

And for the DIY type guys,
You can build one of these type annealers,
which will do most if not all your brass,

see info here,
there is lots of info,
be sure to read ALL the info,

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6..._Machine.html&page=1

http://68forums.com/forums/sho...ht=Annealing+machine

HTH,

Tia,
Don

There are still a few misnomers floating around about annealing brass cases. Brass is softened (annealed) with heat, quenching in water is not required except it is used only to prevent excessive heat transferring further along the case to areas that should not be annealed. I imagine case manufacturers most likely use cold air for this cooling process rather than wetting the cases as they undertake several annealing processes when drawing cases or bullet jackets from stock.

No real need for heat paste or crayon, it is just not that technical, and the colour change is not actually to any shade of red, it is just to the stage before red is visible, more a slight straw colour with bluish edges just appearing on the case shoulder/wall junction. Appearance of dull red is fine and not going to hurt though and is a bit easier visibly to reproduce each time.

Yes if taken too far to cherry red and brass too soft, passes through the resizing die over the expander ball a few times will work harden the necks back to where you want it. This is not going to wear out the case as the only part being expanded and sized each pass is the neck, the body of the case is only sized in the first pass into the FL die not subsequent passes.

To get a good result in annealing, while standing cases in a tin half full of water or turning the case in the flame with the fingers and thumb works okay it is not as consistent as using a case holder/heat sink and spinning slowly in a drill to get a good even and reproduceable anneal.

Have posted this before but this is what I use and it works a treat, simple to pop a case in the holder, anneal and tip into a container of cold water, no hot or burnt fingers, and very even application of heat in exactly the right place each and every time using a small gas flame.

Many years ago I was given some 1955 Israeli 8mm mauser brass. I used some of it to form and trim into 7.65x53mm Argentine mauser brass. never had a problem. Last year took about 100 of these cases and annealed them to be shot in my yugo M48BO also in 8mm mauser caliber. With 5 loadings so far have not had any problems. Iset the tourch up and wear a set of welders gloves. No lights in the garage and heat the shoulder and case neck. then dump in a pail of water and that's it. When done I stick them in an aluminum colander and place that on top of the heat pump just outside the garage. Within an hour or so all cases are dry and ready to load. Frank