I got all wound up about trajectories today until I finally came to the realization that a couple inches between bullet paths really doesn't mean a whole lot. On the screen a two inch difference in bullet path would make you think one rifle shoots flat as a board and the other like a water balloon, In reality, all my rifles will shoot 6-9 inches low at the 300 when sighted 2-2.5" high at the 100yd mark. When I put that into perspective (thinking about a coyote's size, or a deer/Elk vital area) I can hold pretty much the same between most of my rifles. .270, 308, 300 WSM, 338 WINMAG. The .308 being the lowest hitting of all, but still would do the job.

Two inches is quite a bit. If one misses the heart by an inch I want to be on the good side.

There is more to it of course. The wind is harder to figure than the drop and the higher Ci helps a lot there too along with hitting harder.

drum roll!!!!!!!! you have just discovered the MAGNUM MYTH!!!!!!! drum roll!!!!!

Cummins Cowboy has it!

Actually, for target shooting, you ought to get all jerked out of battery over a couple of inches, but in the hunting field, 2" at 300 yards is as good as spot on. Most shots are taken much closer, and the slightly slower bullet of the non-magnum has less KE to warp it out of shape and cause a problem. The ever so slightly slower non-magnum still slays them. Hunt long, hunt hard, and don't confuse benchrest shooting with hunting.

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Originally posted by Savage99:
Two inches is quite a bit. If one misses the heart by an inch I want to be on the good side.
harder.

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A bit of theory here?
If one has to allow for "drop" anyway, if you
shot a wee bit high for any of many reasons, I
guess you'd miss by more with the flatter shooter??

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Originally posted by RupertBear:
Cummins Cowboy has it!

Actually, for target shooting, you ought to get all jerked out of battery over a couple of inches,.

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Why? when I target shoot I know the range
and couldn't care less about having 27 minutes
elevation wound on, as long as they keep plonking in the bull.

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drum roll!!!!!!!! you have just discovered the MAGNUM MYTH!!!!!!! drum roll!!!!!

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Yup......TRAAAAALLAAAAA......
Congratulations sir.....and it's from this point on that your shooting and hunting skills will improve exponentially.

The less hold over that you have to allow for,the less the chance of error.

If the game is far enough away that I have to allow for hold over then I just wait for another shot opportunity. I just can't be bothered. Now at the range when I'm shooting long distance it makes little difference if I have to hold over 43" or 61" at the same distance I still have to calculate the correct hold over and I'd rather use something that dosen't kick the shit out of me.

In Gary Sciuhetti's bullet test,one thing that really stuck me was how the retained weight and penatration remained about the same over the bullet's designed impact velocity window.

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If the game is far enough away that I have to allow for hold over then I just wait for another shot opportunity

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A flatter trajectory will provide for longer shot distances without holdover.

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Originally posted by stubblejumper:
The less hold over that you have to allow for,the less the chance of error.

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Um, sure. But that statement gets to me somehow.

Maybe it depends on what type of error we have
in mind. Some of my errors cancel themselves out
just wish I could count on it.

Anyway, did we all see the claimed improvement
figures on the Win 300 WSM compared to the clapped out 300 win mag. at 300 yards... 0.01"
Gee, gotta get one'a them.

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Maybe it depends on what type of error we have
in mind

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Holdover estimation.It is easier to estimate 9" than 15" at 400 yards.I would rather have the crosshairs on hair than over the animals back.

Stubblejumper.
Yes, and I think most of us can be pathetic
on range estimation as well. I quess it all
ties in and a flat shooter has got to help.

I had an intereswting revalation about trajectories when I was a kid shooting an M1 at 1000 yd at Camp Perry. Soneone told me how high the bullet arcs on the way to the target and I just couldn't believe it.
I did the math myself (it had never occured to me before) and found that they could litterally park a box traiier 18 wheeler between me and the target at the highest part of the trajectory, and my bullet wuld easily clear it on the way downrange!So would a 7mm Magnum.

So jlongo, It's an eye opener alright.
But have you "seen" someones projectile on the way? The trajectory is quite noticable, way over the target.
"Something" like a dark grey dot can often be
seen thru a spotting scope next to or just behind a shooter.

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Originally posted by JAL:
But have you "seen" someones projectile on the way? The trajectory is quite noticable, way over the target.

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On a much smaller scale I have seen a bullet arc into the target. I was shooting a .22LR at a big gong (3') at 100 yards. The gong was freshly painted black and had a bit of sheen on it. On a few of the shots, through the scope, I could see a little gray dot drop into the gong. The downward trajectory was very noticable.

Even without seeing a projectile in flight one can get a clue about what's going on downrange. A friend of mine has an old 45-70 rolling block with an old-school scope on it (nearly as long as the barrel, external adjustments). He shoots exclusively at a 2' gong, at 440-yards. It's very obvious that the scope and barrel are not parallel.

In the "they don't make them like that any more" deparment, as a tangent:
A few weeks this guy, 71 years old, put 5 shots into 4-6" on that gong using a tang-sighted 38-55 (new construction break open). Not sure the exact load, but it was blackpowder with homemade lead.

It seems that most folks who are so enamored with the "magnums" and trajectory tables tend to forget the "wind" and its effects at long range. You might remember that your .300 "super zapper" only drops 12" at 400 yards, but how far will the wind blow your bullet off course at that range. I don't usually take shots beyond 250 (maybe 300) yards because of the wind. Most of the people I know that consistenly shoot and hit at long range shoot often (once or twice per week), can "dope" wind better than most of us can figure the amount of "drop", and can get in positions that hurt my knees (and teeth). More power to them if they can make those 400 yard shots, I'll try to get closer. Magnums might make the long shot more possible, but I'd rather use them for the really big game up close. One other thought, have you ever been on the other side of a mountain where a long range shooter sees game on your side? It can be mighty exciting to guess where he is holding for his long shot. My 2 cents - Mags

I think the 400 yard lads would use a portable
bench rest or similar on a vehicle, and mine
had a special place for the hot cuppa.
They may also be able to get up/down wind.
Also with a decent scope one would be able to
set it for the various ranges. And if the wind
is fairly constant, a few shots will tell tails.
And no I haven't been shot at yet, but one wouldn't want to look anything like "game" when
in the bush.

What I strive to understand are my trajectories out to the 300 yd mark. With all my rifles, except for the 308 WIN, I could aim at hair all the way out to 300 yds and hit "comfortably" within the 10" vital zone.

With that said, I sight my rifles in at the most practical and optimum Point Blank Range, where the bullet at the apex of the trajectory does not exceed 2.5" (or very close) at any point above the line of sight. This way, I can hold dead on out to 250 yds. I would then hold near the top of the animal's back if I estimate the range to be any further. HOLD ON HAIR!

Here is how I have my rifles:

Field-tested bullet paths: 80 degrees, 830 ft elevation, rounded to nearest ¼â€.

.338 WINMAG 225gr SST @ 2800 fps (BAR 24" bbl)

100yds 200 yds 250 yd 300 yds
+2.5" +1.5" +2.5 -6"

300 WSM 180gr SST @ 2900 fps (A-Bolt II 21" bbl)

100 yds 200 yds 250 yd 300 yds
+2.25" +1" +2.5 -5"

.223 REM 55gr FMJBT @ 3175 fps (AR-15 18"bbl)

100yds 200 yds 250 yds 300 yds
+2.25" +1.5" +2.5 -5"

.308 WIN 144gr Nato spec @ 2870 fps (Russian VEPR 23" bbl)

100 yds 200 yds 250 yds 300 yds
+2.25 +1" +2.5 -6

With the above calibers, I have only 1" change in drop. For winter conditions, an additional 1.5â€-2†should be added to the drop at 300 yd mark.

I can hunt year round with different rifles, holding the same for each (Keeping the same 100 yd zeros, but recalibrating for temperature change). Now, I could raise the trajectory, the 300 WSM for instance, and decrease my drop downrange, but it comes at the expense of having a very high bullet path at the closer distances. Guess it depends on what your hunting and how far you want to shoot.

The Exception:

.308 WIN 165gr BTSP @ 2600 fps (A-Bolt II 20"bbl)

100 yds 200 yds 300 yds
+2.5" +.5" -8.5"

Would probably have to put a little daylight between the animal at 300 yds.

Also consider that these trajectories were met using a Bull’s sandbag off the bench in good shooting conditions. Out in the field, in the usual less than perfect hunting conditions + physical conditions (cold, wet, hungry, tired, etc) a hunter would be extremely hard pressed to fire as accurate. So, your 1â€-2†change in drop won’t make much difference since many a hunter can’t shoot bench rest style in the field. I know I can’t.