My local shop says they completed testing of Rl-19 & 22 for temperature stability and found it equal to the Hodgon Extreme powders. This is news to me, however, I am sceptical of testing conducted here in AZ. Any experiences?

easyup ----- Look on the Canadian Hunting Forum here on AR and you will find a discussion of the Allient powders and temperature differences. Good shooting.

I have done a lot of testing this year comparing Hodgdon Extreme 4350 and 4831SC and RL 19 RL 22 and IMR 4350. I live in Montana and I have been collecting data all the way down to 8 degrees. I have also thrown in MagPro as well. RL 22 in a 270 looses (130, 150, 160 gr) about 100 fps between 80 deg and 40 deg and another 25-50 fps when gong down to eight deg. In a 7mm RM I lost 100 fps using 175 gr bullet at 38 deg vs 80 deg (RL22). In a 25-284 4831SC didn't loose any velocity - 3300 fps flat at all temps. RL19 (worst) and IMR 4350 in a 338 WM looses a good 100 - 125 fps plus (210, 225 gr) - using H4350 - no velocity loss. Mag Pro would loose about 50-75 fps using 140 gr and 175 gr bullets. In a 243 no velocity loss using H4350 and 95 gr bullet - 50 fps second loss using IMR 4350. Because of these changes I will be using exclusively powders that are not sensitive to temperature changes. Check out Hodgdon web site they have some good data on velocity loss using their own and competitors powders.

The writer John Barsness posts on the 24hr campfire foorums ( http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php )and has repetedly stated R22 is amoung the more temp unstable powders he has worked with. I`m not sure of R19s reactions but I haven`t noticed much differance with it in my rifles rangeing from ~0 Deg F to the high 90s.
I believe most powders are similar at cooler temps (20-65 deg) and the changes become more appearent in warm weather.

Thanks guys, greatly appreciated.

Barsness needs to get a full time job, He has way too much extra time on his hands....

If ever there was a useless subject, how powder reacts in is got to be it...

todays modern powders all work under any condition...I have used RL 22 and 19 and most of the other from 25 below in Idaho/Wyoming to 110 plus in West Texas/Africa...

Therory has devoured too many gun nuts over the years...God save them..

Hodgdon powders will be temperature stable in one cartridge, and not stable in another.

Varget seems to be optimized for the 308. It gives true zero tempco, which is outstanding. But in the 223, it is quite temperature sensitive.

Double base powders do have one characteristic to watch out for. At about 135 F, which the inside of a car can reach, the nitro escapes from the powder. When the temperature goes back down, it doesn't necessarily end up back in the same place.

Sorry - but not all powders work the same regardless of temperature - I have read other peoples experiences including John Barness, and conducted my own testing. Hodgdon extremes are noticeably more stable across the temperature spectrum than RL22, RL19 or IMR4350. The type of cartridge does not matter - it is a characteristic of the chemistry of the powder. The testing I did involved a 25-285, 270, 7mm RM, 338WM and a 243. That is a pretty broad spectrum of rounds. Also, I certainly want to avoid working up a reload in cold weather and pop a primer or worse on a warm day. Also, I like knowing that a 7mm RM 175 gr is sailing at 2940 fps and not 2750.

2manyguns,

My experiments gave a little different result from yours. I'm seeing big changes in temperature coefficient from caliber to caliber, using the same powder. Not sure how to reconcile that, but here are my results, so we can discuss:

H322, 223, almost zero tempco, but inconsistent.
Varget, 223, 1.48 fps/degree F.
H4350, 6.5x55, .67 fps/degree F (nice!)
AA4350, 6.5x55, 1.22 fps/degree F.
Varget, 308, almost zero tempco (very nice!).
AA2520, 308, 1.04 fps/degree F.
H4350, 30-06, .715 fps/degree F.(nice)
AA4350, 30-06, 2.26 fps/degree F.
IMR4350 and H4350 have identical tempcos in the 7.62x54R.

There is one big flaw in my experiment, which a lot of people share in theirs. When you specify temperature, you have to be very careful to specify which temperature. Ammunition temperature matters. Barrel temperature matters. If you leave the ammo in the chamber for 3-5 minutes, ammo temperature becomes barrel temperature. Ambient temperature only matters because it affects barrel and ammo temperature. I did this experiment before I figured that out.

Ya Know,

With Reloader 19 and 22 Made in Sweden, one would think since that country does not have tropical weather that the powder would perform well in cold weather.

With a chronograph I have seen some of the "Hodgdon Extreme" powders have a velocity deviation spread of 100 fps or more, with the same load. With both RL 19 and 22, the deviation spread was only about 50 fps or so on average.

So if we put this in real world terms, what is the lesser of two evils.

1. Hodgdon extreme powders that had a velocity deviation of 100 fps or more regardless of weather or.....
2. Reloader 19 and 22 have a velocity loss of 100 fps or more when the weather gets cold????

Within prudent hunting ranges, is a 100 fps really going to make a difference if the animal you are shooting at is bigger than a prairie dog, sage rat or woodchuck?

Grandpa Guru Ray Atkinson, has real world common sense once again based on a lot of experience. He is right of two points. It doesn't make a bit of difference in the field, regardless of temperature and 2. John Barsness must have too much time on his hands.

If it isn't accurate in your rifle, why use THAT Powder? If it is, use it.

If the velocity drops off a hundred fps when the weather is really cold, one or two clicks on the scope elevation seating will compensate for that little minor inconvenience if you are that CONCERNED about it.

I sure an envious of the guys who worry about things like that. Their lives evidently have a lot less stressful and important things to worry about compared to mine.

Cheeers and good shooting
seafire

My reloading supplies and ammunition are kept in an unheated garage. The ammunition is sitting on the tail gate prior to loading and shooting. My truck has an outside temp gage which I record. RL19 and RL22 are very accurate powders - and you can load them so they perform well at cold temps - but they very well could be on the warm side during the summer. Most people probably develop there reloads during the warm time of the year. Most of the reloads I use were developed in Alabama where the temps were 90 deg plus - when I moved back to Montana and shot these loads on a 30-40 deg day in the fall they dropped 100-170 fps depending on load and caliber - except SC4831 and H4350. True - it may be a minor point but I reload because I am anal and I'm hooked on numbers. Plus I think John Barsness probably is responsible for more gun magazine sales than any other current writer

When one gains a benefit what do we give up?

Besides the price are there any negatives from Hodgdon's Extreme line?

I found that MagPro leaves a coating on the necks and maybe the bore and while it gives higher velocities I am all done with it.

I got the same coating from a few loads of H1000. I don't know if that powder is "extreme" or not but I will not use that again.

The fact that I don't like to just shoot off "practice" loads means that I have way too many can's of inactive powder.

quote:

Barsness needs to get a full time job, He has way too much extra time on his hands....

This comming from a guy who has 15619 posts here.

Chuck

2manyguns ----- I have two questions to ask. First, how many rounds have you shot to gather the data on each powder. Second, what kind of chronograph are you using, and do you use it each time you shoot. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Barsness needs to get a full time job, He has way too much extra time on his hands....

This comming from a guy who has 15619 posts here.

Chuck

Well Ray is way past retirement age, so I am sure he has time on his hands. 15619 posts is not a bad thing at all. He brings a lot of wisdom born from experience here. And he does not do it to sell magazines either. We should be greatful he shares what is in his head.

We all should be so lucky to have time on our hands also. I darn sure wish I did!

Cheers
seafire

Phurley 5

I'm using an F1 Chrony - and virtually every round I fire at a target goes thru the chrony. As to how many rounds - well probably a few hundred would be a close guess - plus I record and enter all data in a book I keep. I use to use RL22 exclusively in the 270 and 7mm RM - extremely accurate reloads - but I started noticing the cold weather drop offs after moving back to Montana. By the eay for those interested I saw a 60 fps increase in velocity in the 243 when I swtiched from IMR 4350 to H4350 - about the same increase for these powders in a 338WM - I also would check some older loads with IMR4350 to see if they stayed the same - they did - I decreased the charge by about 1 grain each when using H4350

I have a question about all of this temp. sensitive stuff. I hope you don't find this as dumb as it is going to sound. My question is, If I spend hours at the range in 80 deg. temps testing powders etc. to come up with the "Perfect Load", is that load no longer perfect in much colder temps.? What I am trying to say is, If I get sub MOA with a powder in 80 deg. will I still have a sub MOA in colder temps? The reduction of vel. is not important to me as long as my accuracy is retained.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
I have a question about all of this temp. sensitive stuff. I hope you don't find this as dumb as it is going to sound. My question is, If I spend hours at the range in 80 deg. temps testing powders etc. to come up with the "Perfect Load", is that load no longer perfect in much colder temps.? What I am trying to say is, If I get sub MOA with a powder in 80 deg. will I still have a sub MOA in colder temps? The reduction of vel. is not important to me as long as my accuracy is retained.

Temperature and Altitude make some difference in point of impact. My 300 win load at 500 yards:

80 degrees, 300' altitude - 2196 fps, 36.7" drop

35 degrees, 300' altitude - 2141 fps, 37.6" drop

25 degrees, 7000' altitude - 2377 fps, 34.8" drop

Thinner air at higher altitudes retards bullet velocity less and POI will change.

____________________________________
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- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Barsness needs to get a full time job, He has way too much extra time on his hands....

If ever there was a useless subject, how powder reacts in is got to be it...

todays modern powders all work under any condition...I have used RL 22 and 19 and most of the other from 25 below in Idaho/Wyoming to 110 plus in West Texas/Africa...

Therory has devoured too many gun nuts over the years...God save them..

I had a conversation with a good hunting friend at a Hunting expo last weekend. We hadn't seen each other in a while, so we started into our usual gun talk. After discussing all kinds of minute details and theory, we both ended the conversation admitting that most of the details we fret about are inconsequential and just weren't worth worrying about. When asked each other why we obsess, the only reason we could think of was because of "off season blues" and was just something to do.

I try to just load my rounds as hot, safe, and accurate as possible and leave room for temperature change in hot weather while developing loads in cold weather. It is only prudent for safety sake since my reloads are hotter than most factory loads.

Ballistics calculators - Just about all popular hunting cartridges land with 8 inches of each other at 300 yds (The distance of a standard sized piece of paper on its side). Just get to know your trajectory for your gun, ON THE RANGE"!

Bullet-runout obsession. You know who I'm talking about. Those of you who categorize their handloads with .001, .002, .003, etc. of runout! (I know, I've been there)


No one will shoot 1/2" groups on game out in the field.

CRF, CRPF, push feed...doesn't make a damn bit of difference as long as it feeds. I've had more problems with CRF than push feeds.

Steve makes an intersting point about the accuracy of your handloads when used in different temperatures because of velocity variations. Let me set up the scenario. My numbers are purely for example, but you can grasp the idea. You load a round to 2700fps @80F and get 1 MOA. You load a round for 2600fps @80F and get... let's say 2.5MOA. Going from 80F to 32F you lose that 100fps give or take. Knowing what you expreienced at the bench earlier what do you do? Some of us do not have the ability to fly from FLA to NC during the winter for a couple days to do load development. Understandably, it is easier to load down to go from a cold place to a hot one, but what about the other way around?

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
Steve makes an intersting point about the accuracy of your handloads when used in different temperatures because of velocity variations. Let me set up the scenario. My numbers are purely for example, but you can grasp the idea. You load a round to 2700fps @80F and get 1 MOA. You load a round for 2600fps @80F and get... let's say 2.5MOA.

I know you are using these numbers for an example, but are they representative of what happens? We all realize that in colder weather trajectory will be impacted, but will accuracy of the load also be impacted? It's one thing to dial in a bit more elevation, but if accuracy also degrades by a factor of 2 or 3, then you have to be concerned about taking some longer shots.

2manyguns and others ----- I am an accuracy nut with hunting loads. I shoot 3000 plus rounds per year trying to achieve maximum accuracy for my loads, and I develop them from 70 degrees up to 95 because those temperatures are when I do most of my shooting. I shoot from private benchs with a shooting buddy that builds rifles and does his testing and accuracy research with me. His advice has been invaluable to me as we practice out hobby. We are not neophytes at this game. We shoot many one hole groups when we have good days. We do shoot at all temperature ranges with those finished loads and chronograph all shots, then practice all shooting positions off the bench before the hunting trip. I hunt Colorado at approximately 9,000 ft every year for Elk, with trips to Alaska occasionally, and last year a Buffalo hunt to Tanzania. I used RL-22 for a .358 STA I shot in Colorado for Elk and Mule Deer, in Alaska for Caribou, Wolfe and Bear, and in Tanzania for plains game. Shots come from 30 yards to 350 yards, that is my limit. In Tanzania I also used RL-15 for my .416 Rem on Buffalo. ----- I have never noticed perceavable difference in my accuracy under field conditions while hunting using these powders, and this represents several years hunting, under all temperature ranges from 20 below to 100 degrees in Africa. While I do not test under bench conditions in the field, my shots are where I aim them and have always done their job on game. I have witnessed shooters drawing conclusions with one days shooting, I will average many groups before drawing any kind of conclusion, on accuracy or speed. ----- Everyone has to do his own thing, you just heard how I do it, it may not be right but it has worked for me. Good shooting.

My experience has not shown much of a loss of accuracy - even the point of impact at 100 yds shows very little shift - I probably get mote shift in change of impact just due to shooting on different days. But for time and money I spend developing safe high performance reloads I want that velocity to stay the same when I go to the field.

Live in Texas, Florida, South Carolina and hunt Elk in Colorado, Montana, Wyoming:

You lose 100 fps going from 80 degrees to 20 degrees, you gain 100 fps going from 300 foot altitude to 8000 foot altitude. It's all a guessing game unless you can actually do it repetitively and consistently.

Sometimes the indecision, lack of confidence, and 2nd guessing can be a much worse thing than a 2" difference at 400 yards!!