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. Does anyone have any idea of how you 'prove' this extra 2-300fps kills anything any deader than the slower load?

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I am sure this will start an argument but most rifles will shoot better than the guy holding them can shoot anyway. How many folks do you know that can take their �deer rifle� and consistently hit an 8� paper plate offhand at a hundred yards? Try it this weekend and come back and tell us how you did. Especially if you�ll sprint 50 yds or so, then shoot.

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Trapper Wrote:

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. Does anyone have any idea of how you 'prove' this extra 2-300fps kills anything any deader than the slower load?

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Trapper,

It doesn't Kill them deader, it kills them faster.

There are numerous carts that are prime examples of this, take the 270 WBY Mag vs. the 270 Win for example. The Wby causes much more internal damage and results in a quicker more humane kill. I would only say more humane on those less than desirable hits that every hunter is going to make if he stays in the woods enough.

Sure a 30 carbine will kill a deer but, you'd better be a good tracker. A 30-30 or 300 Savage would be better. The list goes on and on.

Then, you get into trajectory issues. The 270 WSM is definitely flatter than the 270 win.

They are both excellent carts to shoot. If a man wants a little more punch from a .277 bullet, the WSM is probably the way to go.

Good Luck!

Reloader

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Reloader, I would have to agree with some of what you say but perhaps I failed to make my point clear. YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR PART in order for the plan to work. Someone once said and it is too true, "A gut shot deer is a gut shot deer, be it shot with a 22 short or a 458 Winc." We don't think a great deal of the old 8x57 in this country but worldwide it is a great caliber. My first wife spent 7 1/2 months in the hospital with leukemia before passing away and I spent a lot of time in the shop with an FN Mauser during this period - I could not sleep and I needed something to keep from going crazy (crazier??)
To cut to the chase, my daughter asked for the Mauser before I 'finished' it as my plan was to spin out the 8x57 barrel and replace it with a 358 Winc. She wanted it left in 8x57 so I did. She killed several deer with the little rifle before the babies came along and she stopped hunting. My son-in-law fell in love with the Mauser and to date, he has killed 22 deer with it. Never lost one and all of them shot with the same load: 170gr Hornady bullet pushed by 51 grs H4350. This rifle with 22" barrel will shoot less than 2" groups all day with this load with very little recoil. While this is not a �tack drive� or a bean field rifle by some definitions, it is certainly adequate for most hunting. I am sure this will start an argument but most rifles will shoot better than the guy holding them can shoot anyway. How many folks do you know that can take their �deer rifle� and consistently hit an 8� paper plate offhand at a hundred yards? Try it this weekend and come back and tell us how you did. Especially if you�ll sprint 50 yds or so, then shoot.
Now I ask you: could he have done any better with any other caliber? I don't see how. IF he had used the calibers you referenced he would have certainly thrown out more meat. I don't think enough of us spend the time anymore to try and learn how to hunt but want to rely entirely on too many gimcracks to do the work for us � the latest double-throw down barnburner magnum with a 42X whoop-de-do scope and about 5500fps at the muzzle. I have no argument with people that wish to arm themselves with such but really think they would be better served to spend some time and money with their rifle, learn to shoot better and then try and get somewhere inside 200 yds � or less � before ever attempting a shot. Really, I wonder how many folks toting a hard kicking, bellowing magnum would be better off with something they could really shoot? Also, can you recall how we were told the 223 or 5.56 NATO could and would outperform any 30 caliber round, the bullets were designed to tumble when they hit something, adequte and accurat enough to kill a man sized target consisitently at 800 meters, etc, etc? How many folks actually believed this crap? The .223 is a great round but certainly has no magical qualities! How did we get this far off the subject, anyhow?
Just my own opinions and my ideas, based on a lot of time spent shooting, hunting and enjoying every minute of it.
See ya in the swamp!
�Trapper�

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Until they learn that the magnum is nothing different if you shoot it the same as a regular cart., there is no use in shooting the Magnums but, when you can shoot them just as good as the standards they are definitely the way to go IMO.

Hey, you will catch me in the woods w/ a standard on many occassions but, that doesn't mean I don't like the performance of my Mags.

When it comes down to it, the guy that swears by a 308 and shoots deer at less than a 100 yards is no different than the guy that swears by his 300 winnie but, he makes 300 yard kills.

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he claimed he was getting in the region of 2930 fps in the 06 with a 180 gn proj

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A 65,000psi load in one rifle is a 65,000psi load in another rifle.....true. Actualy there will be some slight variation, with a tight chamber recording slightly higher pressure than a "slop hole" chamber (the reason that the pressure barrels use tight chambers is reduce the risk of your rifle seeing excess pressure).

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Really?? The variations are often a lot more than slight.



"It seems very difficult to impress most reloaders with the fact that every rifle is an individual, and what proves to be a maximum load in one may be quite mild in another, and vice versa." Bob Hagel, GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER, 1977. This is as true today as it ever was. Even two consecutive rifles off the same assembly line can show a marked difference in the max load each will accept. And the reason for this is that they don't both produce the same peak pressure (or velocity) with the same load.



Actually, it is BRASS, not the rifle, which shows signs of too-high pressures first! If you are running pressures that cause damage (ie, expanded primer pockets, etc.) to your cases, the pressures are too high, regardless of velocities. This is what I would want to query Sam about regarding his 2900+ FPS 180-grain '06 load.

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he claimed he was getting in the region of 2930 fps in the 06 with a 180 gn proj......HOW DOES HE DO THIS WHILE KEEPING UNDER 65,000 PSI

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Just because there are no pressure signs does not mean there is no high pressure. I have seen it quoted on several occassions that pressure signs never showed up even above 75k psi. I've seen close to .270 weatherby velocity out of a .270 Win on several occassions with no pressure signs, but I never jumped up for joy and proclaimed that my .270 was one of the few in the world that is magical enough to get more velocity than all others. I've seen this in several other calibers as well at one time or another including .300 win mag, .30-06, and .280 Remington. I tend to believe it's more along the lines of some rifles/brass combos do not produce the common signs or pressure than some rifles/loads produce signifcantly higher velocity than all others. -Lou

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Lou, I agree with everything you say here, but it seems to me that even though no obvious pressure suiigns showed up on one occasion when 75,000 psi was reached or exceeded, that pretty soon at such pressures (if the case were loaded several tmes with this load), the point would be reached where the primer pockets would no longer hold a primer. The case would have to be scrapped. Please comment on this if you have any info about this factor?? I try to keep my loads at a level where I can get at least ten reloads out of a batch of brass. Even though I have no pressure measuring equipment, I have always regarded this means as a way of knowing if one's pressures are at an acceptable level. But I can't PROVE IT!!