How many loads before you decide if a rifle is just not a shooter?

several factors!!!!!

1. what is your accuracy acceptance?.....are you willing to be happy with REAL 1.25" groups?.....or must you have "half MOA" groups?????

2. Do you have a favorite bullet you want to shoot?....example.....you really like A-Frames and want to shoot them......and are you willing to change to other premium bullets.....or are you happy if any cup and core bullet shoots good?

3. Must your rifle perform under your requirements at the max velocity published for the bullet weight.....?

Here's an example.....if you have a .300 WIN mag and want to shoot 200 grain A-Frames into 1/2" groups and the bullet has to clock at 2,900 fps or more.....you just might have to buy a lot of guns before you find one that matches your requirements.....you may never find one!!!!!

However if you're willing to be happy with ballistic tips (or roughly equivalent bullets) at 1.25" groups at 2,800 fps then most any .300 magnum will give it for yu!


If the rifle is glass bedded and the barrel is free floated and it won't shoot ballistic tips or Hornady SSTs or other fine bullets into 1.25" groups at 100 yards having tried three different (and appropriate) powders.....trade it for a different one.....I've only had one in my life I couldn't get to match this requirement.

Generally, I'd say three bullets and three powders. But it could be more than that. I've been playing with my .243 for some time with quite a few different variables because it's a legitimate dual use cartridge.

I have determined that it will not shoot 55 grain BTips. Three different powders later, the best groups I've gotten is 1.5" All the rest were over 2" and most of them closer to 2.5". With certain powders, it does very nicely with certain 95 or 100 grain bullets. Now, I need to do some experimenting with the 85 gr TSX 70-80 grain varmint bullets. One day I will decide what it is.

But with other guns, it's easier. On a .375 H&H, IMHO, you really only have to choose between 270 and 300 grain bullets and start with RL15 since it's the goto powder in that caliber. If a couple of bullets in either weight won't work, then try another powder. If that doesn't work, you've got a problem.

LWD

Agree with both the above. The key, in my opinion, is bullet weight. Two examples: my Savage 112 BVS (300WM) would not shoot worth a XXXX. I sent it back to Savage, they sent me back a group that any target shooter would be proud of. It turned out that the rifle will not shoot 180s, but will shoot 168s extremely well. I have two other (hunting) 300WMs which both shoot 180s! My Ruger UL 257R will not shoot 120 (NPs) but will shoot 117s and will shoot 100s. I of course want it to shoot 120s!!!
Peter.

Would it be worth trimming off a few millimeters from the muzzle, crowning it properly and repeating the same trials? How about adding a false crown to add a little forward dampening weight? I cannot help wondering how often a barrel opens up just ever so slightly at the muzzle. Have you ever noticed how sometimes, the copper streaks on the lands and simetimes in the grooves, narrow out just at the muzzle? (Clearly visible in bright sunlight).

Peter, what are NP's? (Forgive my ignorance). Which 168's were they? (And which 180's? - boat tails, hollow points etc. ) Are the twist rates in those 300's the same?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Peter, what are NP's? (Forgive my ignorance). Which 168's were they? (And which 180's? - boat tails, hollow points etc. ) Are the twist rates in those 300's the same?

I would assume the NP = Nosler Partitions.

303, Graybird has it right, NP= Nosler Partition. The Savage BVS in 300WM is a heavy target type gun and shoots the 168 gr. Sierra MatchKings very well (Hornady's nearly as well). My other 300WM's are hunting rifles: Tikka, Winchester and Blaser. All shoot the 180 gr, Nosler Partitions very well (under one inch, 5 shot groups). The Tikka prefers the Noslers Combined Technology moly coated bullets that are no longer made, but I still have some!
I have no idea what the twist rate is in the different rifles. In 257, the Sierra 100 grain is a match bullet. The 117 is a I believe a Hornady SST (red plastic bullet).
Peter.

Make sure you've tried different weights and styles of bullets. I tried to make my .243 shoot 100 grain bullets and never could get anything other than mediocre groups. I switched to 65-85 grain bullets and they shoot great. I have a 30-06 that I can't get to shoot 150 grain bullets, but it shoots 180 grain bullets well.

As others have stated, there are a number of things you can try before "chunking" the gun. Oh, by the way, what about your scope, rings, and mounts? My nickels worth.

The benchrest and Camp Perry guys have opinions on how many rounds, but they need to be more accurate.

The varmint guys shoot until the throat looks bad with the naked eye.

The numbers always seem to be between 500 and 10,000 rounds, depending on how much accuracy is required and how over square is the cartridge.

Link to Bart Bobbit's throat wear formula


I personally have never got any kind of barrel wear, but I have a previously owned 22-250 with a shot out throat.

depends on the rifle, but generally speaking if in a couple hundred rounds it won't do what i want it to , its down the road.

I agree. No set number and it depends on the purpose of the rifle. However, I do believe that there are a few generic loads that if a rifle is gonna shoot at all, it will shoot those loads well. Also, if a rifle is gonna shoot, it will shoot most loads reasonably well and you only need to find the special load for it to shoot especially well.
IMO, a rifle that will only shoot acceptably with one particular primer, with one particular bullet, with one particlar powder, with one particular case, etc is a waste of time, effort, and money.

Hey Ted, Once upon a time, long l-o-n-g ago(it is important this story start that way) I swapped into an absolutely exquisit looking rifle. Good old Stainless and Synthetic which is what I prefer, but it also had some eye-catching(roll on) engraving. Target crown, removable magazine(which I'm normally not a fan of), nice somewhat light taper to the barrel and other niceties. Trigger was excellent.

My biggest concern was that everyone who Hunted with me would be soooo embarrassed of their own rifles, that they would just scrap them all out.

Stuck a matte finish 6.5-20x VariX-III on top, which I removed from my l-o-n-g range, extremely accurate 7mmRemMag M700, to do the Load Development with.

This new rifle was in 308Win which I had a bunch of experience using and loading for. Broke out the MatchKings to Benchmark the barrel. Huuuumm, groups a bit erratic. Perhaps the rifle prefered a different weight Bullet or Powder. I always take a good many rifles to the Range which allows time for the barrels to cool, clean them real well between groups and use a Rimfire for some Off-Hand practice. So, I was not "over-shooting" the barrel.

Three years and perhaps 60-75 Range Trips later , the rifle was still not shooting to my standards. Things would settle down for a couple of groups and then back to erratic. No rhyme or reason with the group-openers(not fliers, just a bit wide in no particular direction). I was sitting at the Range thinking about it and a young fellow walked down the line, introduced himself and asked if I would explain a specific "Term" to him.



I knew that was the problem as I defined it to him. The problem was the kind of bone headed, totally dumb thing a person would only expect from larry gibson or teanscum. Needless to say when he asked about Parallax it embarrassed me greatly to think that was the problem - and it was. The Adjustable Objective was still set for waaaaaaay out yonder from the 7mmRemMag. Pitiful!!!

Groups immediately went to well under an inch for about 5 Range Trips and the first trip afield resulted in a fine Large Doe going in the freezer. Traded the rifle before another shot was ever fired.

Fortunately, I've never been confronted with that problem. However, there is a caveat. As someone above said, I intended a rifle that I had built in 257 Roberts recently to shoot 100 grain bullets, and that's what I told the gunsmith before he started the build. When I got the rifle, I could not find any combo of powder and 100 grain bullets that would shoot. But, 90 grain and 87 grain bullets shoot 1/2" three shot groups at 100 yards using a 20 scope. So, I don't have a 100 grain 257 rifle, I have one that shoots lighter bullets. I can live with that.
All other rifles I have will shoot. It may take a trip to Hill Country Rifles, but eventually they do shoot.
I do as much as I can with glass bedding, free floating the barrel, barrel lapping, and trigger work myself, and with lots of different loads to get them to shoot. Usually they do shoot. But, I just got a rifle delivered back today from Hill Country Rifles that I could NOT get to shoot. It does now, thanks to them.
Answer to your question: I never throw in the towel.

Don

7/8 years ago, I bought a Ruger 77/II ultralight cal 270 W; the damned thing wasn't able to print a decent group whatever bullet weight/powder I tried; 3 or 4 MOA at 200 m. with the first shot ALWAYS several centimeters high and left. Then I switched to a slightly heavier Lothar Walther barrel and instantly the issue was over.

UNfair!!!!......tell us more about the problem!

DMB, perhaps you would care to comment on my thread on "Shortening a 303 Brit barrel - how short? Best loads?".

quote:

... I could not find any combo of powder and 100 grain bullets that would shoot.

Do you have any kind of explanation? Did you try heavier bullets just to see what happens? Did you note any differences between BT's and FB's? (I tend not to not measure 'non-groups').

If the problem is bad enough you can give up on a rifle with the first load. I had a used but like new #1 Ruger 45-70 that shot 18" groups the first time I took it to the range with irons sights. Just my eyes getting old I thought. I put a scope on it it and got the same results on the next trip. I put it away and thought about it a while. Like about 2 months. I finally pushed several cast bullets through it and found constrictions at the barrel band and under the front sight band. I shipped the rifle back to the factory and Ruger put a new barrel on it at no charge. After that it shot groups between 1.25' and 1.5' with the same load.

Wehn it won't shoot SR 4759 and Blue Dot loads worth a crap....

If I can get a .5 group fairly quickly within a short time with my reloads I figure I can work with the rifle. If I don't get a one hole group eventually it will not remain in my safes. Good shooting.

I bought a left handed stainless, laminate stock Ruger in 7 mag a long time ago when stainless lefties were rare as hen's teeth.

Over a 5 year period I tried at least two dozen bullets with a half a dozen different powders for over 100 different loads and could never get it to shoot 1 MOA consistently.

I had the rifle bedded, the barrel re-crowned and the trigger re-worked with no luck.

I accidently discovered that my barrel needs to be fouled with at least 10 shots before it settles down and shoots consistently and now it will shoot the 140 grain TSX into .75". And now that there is the no-lead law here in Condor country, I'll keep it.

I considered that gun a project and just kept plugging away at it. When you're a lefty you learn patience.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
if a rifle is gonna shoot, it will shoot most loads reasonably well and you only need to find the special load for it to shoot especially well.
IMO, a rifle that will only shoot acceptably with one particular primer, with one particular bullet, with one particlar powder, with one particular case, etc is a waste of time, effort, and money.

I agree. I can usually tell within the first 20 or so shots if a rifle is going to be a shooter or not. A good rifle will shoot almost everything pretty well, and a few loads exceptionally well. A rifle that starts throwing bullets when you switch primer brands is going to be finicky in other regards and I wouldn't trust it. I've seen some that shot lights out one day then you take them out on another day when it's 15 degrees cooler and they're throwing them everywhere. I don't need something that tempermental. I once ran more $$$ in reloading components through a ruger 7mm mag trying to get it to shoot than the rifle itself cost. I wish now I'd just rebarreled it from the start, that's what I ended up doing to get it to shoot anyway. If a rifle won't shoot pretty well after doing the basics- bedding and free floating, adjust the trigger, ballistic tips seated to the lands, etc., then it most likely won't ever shoot and more drastic steps need to be taken. Running $500 worth of bullets through it ain't going to fix it.

Run a few patches saturated with Kroil through the barrel and let it sit over night. Next day run a clean patch down the barrel, then lap the hell out of it with J&B paste. Then, start the reloading process over. For me, working up a load begins with J&B.

quote:

Originally posted by Col K:
For me, working up a load begins with J&B.

Ditto, for barrels that are not lapped by the maker.

Don

Sometimes you just can't quit.

I just sent a 7600 .243 in for a new tube. It might shoot 4 inches on a really good day but with light Blue Dot loads it shot one holers. Bad day and bad load, I think my shotguns were more accurate with shot. 16 inch groups we not that unusual.

I tried four powders and six different bullets.

I specified I want the old barrel back! I will settle it out with the new barrel and then I will find out what is wrong with the old one even if that means sectioning it and putting the sections under a microscope.

ted thorn,

There are many factors besides just loads. For instance if the bedding is not stable or correct a 'good load' may shoot in the rifle one day and not shoot well the next.

The bedding must be checked, the stock screws, the scope and mounts, the barrel condition and I have found some bad crowns that could be fixed by breaking the corner on the crown myself.

Crowns

I personaly don't ever quit on a rifle.

I have some that I have done everything in the book to ring out a great shooting rifle....and some that shot great with the bare minimum of what I do with all my rifles.

I love to hear the stories from everyone on the one that gave them problems...but I here from alot of people that they wont have a gun that won't shoot under 1/2"....my question is....

WOW you must trade alot?

My Ruger M77 in 7X57 shot no 140 grain bullets well and that included 3 different factory loads that I got cheap just for the brass - Federal, Frontier and Remington.
Handloads included Hornaday (FB and BT) and Sierra bullets.
I got another deal on some cheap 170 grain Federal factory ammo......it shot tiny little groups.
I switched to Hornady 175 grain sptitzers....more tiny groups
Some old Herter's 175 grain RNs ....more tiny groups.


I think it has to do with the twist and the throat length of the 7X57.

The more you try the more you learn and the luckier you get.

quote:

... 7X57 shot no 140 grain bullets well and that included 3 different factory loads that I got cheap just for the brass - Federal, Frontier and Remington.
Handloads included Hornaday (FB and BT) and Sierra bullets.
I got another deal on some cheap 170 grain Federal factory ammo......it shot tiny little groups.

Valuable input, ireload2. Has anyone tried seating those shorter bullets right out in the tip of the case mouth?

quote:

Parallax ....
Groups immediately went to well under an inch for about 5 Range Trips ...

Hah! There's another one! How about loose locking ring on the parallax adjustment? Then I have a scope with a screw on front lense piece that was loose! And I put that scope on to eliminate possible scope problems!!!

quote:

I personaly don't ever quit on a rifle.

Good encouragement! (Sometimes I need it).

quote:

quote:

aluable input, ireload2. Has anyone tried seating those shorter bullets right out in the tip of the case mouth?

Long seating bullets within reason is standard practice for me.
In a 7MM, 140 grain BT bullets were the worse because you lose the the length of the boat tail that is the boat tail doe not provide any grip in the case neck so the bullet must be seated deeper even though it is already a short bullet.
To some extent you can make up the difference with Nosler Ballistic Tips since they are longer and have shorter boat tails. However I have thousands of of non Ballistic Tip bullets so I just use the heavier bullets in 7X57.

I just dismantled the last of my 125gr loads. It was not so much a problem of angular misalignment of the bullet axis but parallel displacement of the bullet axis to the case axis. Now I intend reloading that bullet in an unsized case with minimal seating depth and then I'll check the runout on a lathe. I will try one half bullet diameter seating depth for first test.