What's that going to do to the value of the 35P that I just paid $2800 for?

quote:

What's that going to do to the value of the 35P that I just paid $2800 for

Well, at less than $600 in the new kit it will sure decrease any expected resale value. But, if it was worth $2,800 to you before, I suppose it's still as valuable to you as it ever was. ??

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
What's that going to do to the value of the 35P that I just paid $2800 for?

Oooouuucch!!!

Chrony $100.00, 35P $2800.00. Wow!!
Curious minds ask, what did you expect the 35P to do that a Chrony don't?? Or what does it do that is $2700.00 better than a Chrony.
DISCLAIMER: I am not, nor have I ever been a Chrony shill. Those are real questions.

Forrest, not sure that folks could perceive that your tongue was firmly implanted in your cheek.

Price aside, the Chrony is a toy compared to the Oehler.
Butch

Quick.........someone PM Hotsh#t on the particulars.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Chrony $100.00, 35P $2800.00. Wow!!
Curious minds ask, what did you expect the 35P to do that a Chrony don't?? Or what does it do that is $2700.00 better than a Chrony.
DISCLAIMER: I am not, nor have I ever been a Chrony shill. Those are real questions.

No doubt man! I have had both and other than very few isolated light incidents they were both great. I sold the 35P and use a Master Beta Chrony now.

35P with everything including the carrying case for $575. In todays money I would say it is a very good deal considering how long my M35P has been working without fail.

Larry Gibson

"Forrest, not sure that folks could perceive that your tongue was firmly implanted in your cheek."

Uh oh, I guess my face is red.

When one has the tendency to shoot holes in the chronograph (as I have done) then one tends to find the much cheaper Chrony a better deal....

Just out of curiosity, why in the world would you ever shoot the chronograph/skyscreens?????
I have had my Oehler for nearly 30 years and have yet to shoot any part of it. When setting up, your bullet doesn't need to pass any closer than about 4-5 inches of the skyscreens and you just set up your rifle on the bench then set the skyscreen stands accordingly. Am I missing something?

quote:

why in the world would you ever shoot the chronograph

In another thread here many folks admitted to this error.....not just me!

In my case I was testing shot shells and the wad took out the Chrony.....Very dumb of me but it happened just the same

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

why in the world would you ever shoot the chronograph

In another thread here many folks admitted to this error.....not just me!

In my case I was testing shot shells and the wad took out the Chrony.....Very dumb of me but it happened just the same

Besides, The Chrony really does make a better target.Yes Experience! roger

We have tried every chronograph we could buy. And there NOTHING, NOTHING, that can even come close to be as reliable as an Oehler 35P.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We have tried every chronograph we could buy. And there NOTHING, NOTHING, that can even come close to be as reliable as an Oehler 35P.

Yes---that is correct but there are folks who hate to admit that they made a mistake on the purchase of anything. On the other hand Ken’s products are more expensive but as in many things in life (not all of course) you get what you pay for. The 35P is the best system for the non professional-----if you have the money Ken makes some systems that will really set you back lol!!!

I don't doubt Saeed for a moment.My only point is @ 20 years ago, (or more) Chrony brought out a chronograph for around $100. At that time, Oehler chronys were selling for several times that or more.
I felt I could risk $100 but certainly couldn't afford a Oehler. That Chrony is still ticking and telling me how fast my bullets are going. And that's all I expect of it.
Without a doubt, Chrony opened up a totally new diminion to your common reloaders. And, as a spin off, Oehler, et al, have decided they too could make a chronograph that is priced within reach of the common man.
FWIW, if Chrony hadn't come along, you certainly wouldn't be able to buy that 35P for any 500 bucks.

I bought my 35 about a year prior to the 35P being available. In those days the Chrony had very small sky screens as compared to the Oehler so it was easier to shoot through with fear of hitting your apparatus and secondly if you did strike the screens, the electronics were not to it.
This thing must be 30 years old and replace the 9 volt battery every once in a while and years back I replaced the "tape" sky screens with the orange plastic units.
The only thing this unit has a problem providing data on is carbon arrows. It does fine with aluminum. Have not figured that one out yet????
I believe I paid about $300.00 for mine way back when.

I would have bought an Oehler when I first decided I needed a chronograph, but by then they had stopped making them.

So, I bought a Chrony and it has worked just fine over the years.

Maybe I will buy an Oehler some day, but not as long as my Chrony ain't broke.

Ken Oehler makes a great product. But the 35P ("proof" model) is belt and suspenders. I bought his plain 35 many years ago with only the stop and start screens and have never had any question about whether a shot registered correctly. They either register (and are right) or they don't (but the "don'ts" are very rare and only occur in very poor light.)

Of course, I cut my chronographing teeth on his original Model 10. It was infallible, so long as you could hit the paper and not the screen holder. And calculating each shot's velocity with the yes-no meter and the time-speed conversion chart gave your barrel time to cool, too!

The advantage to owning the 35P is that when you allow an inept friend to use your chronograph and he shoots one of the screens, with the P model you already own a spare screen

Blacktailer ----- If you have never shot over the Chrony and have shot only over the Oehler, it may be hard to understand why someone would hit any part of the chronograph. I shot over the Beta Chrony and Gamma Chrony for years, and while I never shot them, my brother-in-law creased the Beta model very nicely. I learned that day that his and my bore sightings are not the same. The Oehler sky screens are so much bigger, the larger margin of error will usually take care of you. If you ever let someone else shoot over any chronograph, check them and their rifle very closely before proceeding. My 35-P was purchased second hand but hardly used. It has served me well for years and their expert help is only a phone call away. Yesterday I replaced a slow battery and then the printer would not work. I called them today and was told how to trouble shoot the problem with instant success. Good shooting.

If you read the details of the proposed reissue of Ken O's chronograph, and know a little bit about why he stopped making them in the first place you may be less than enthused about this--as Ken certainly is not enthused--there are to be “at least a couple hundred” to “test the waters” and if they sell then "Gary Stafford, who is overseeing the Model 35P program" may be allowed to continue production. Such lukewarm support from the company pres does not bode well for support, either in after sales customer support or quality control. Ken lost enthusiasm for consumer products years ago and it appears as if the company is either not doing all that well relying on government contracts, or a boardroom powerplay is in the offing since if this project is continued, Dr. Oehler will not continue in an active role at Oehler Research.

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...-resumes-production/

They have never failed to support their product even though they may not still make one.
Butch

The apparent reason for Ken Oehler's tentativeness on the M35 offering (and for dropping the consumer products in the first place) is simply that the consumer chronograph is a relatively low margin item which doesn't make much money for the company and does take a lot of time away from much more lucretive pursuits. It appears that Ken has agreed to test-market a few hundred units to see if the effort is financially worthwhile.

Insofar as customer support, I doubt that you could get much better than Oehler's, regardless of whether their consumer line makes them as much money as the time they spend on it.

Insofar as I am aware, the "Board Room" at Oehler is the kitchen table. It is a very small privately held company that wants to make a good living for its principle and employees, including affording them the time for pursuits outside of work. They know that they are not going to sell tens of thousands of consumer chronographs in today's saturated market, so simple math tells you that it is wiser to expend their efforts in other pursuits.

No matter what the future of Oehler consumer chronographs, let's never forget that it was Ken Oehler who brought cheap and accurate velocity measuring within the grasp of the ordinary handloader. THANKS DOC!

Sorry, but until Chrony came along, you would hear of gun clubs pooling their money and buying a chronograph, but it certainly wasn't an item the average reloader had on his bench.
Believe me, I was there.

Skip step one, start making M43's again...

Rich
DRSS

I would still like to know how any shooter can say with certainty the Oehler is "better" since there is no way for the average person to measure the performance of it.
As a previous owner of a 35P I can say it gave me results but there is no fricking way I can say the results were accurate. You can set up two 35P's (or any other chrono for that matter) side by side and shoot the exact same load through both of them and we all know due to all the variables concerned each will give a different reading.
As usual, I just ask myself, "How do I know this information to be true" about any chrono. And the point is, I don't.

I have been shooting over (and shot 3 times) the same Ohler 35p since 1984. I uses a double check read on each shot and each shot is validated by a matching process. Ohler has been the gold status in the ballistics industry since the late 70's and their commercial equipment stayed available. I have talked to Dr Ohler and worked with the same lady at Ohler for my support for 25 years +. I don't know whats better than an Ohler 43, but, I always wanted one. I have only owned the 35P so I don't know if anything is better than my Ohler. PS: I bought it used in 1984 for 85 dollars.) This is just my experience and I believe it to be true and accurate to the best of my recollection. thanks rc

I've owned an Oehler chronograph since '75. Started with the M10 with skyscreens, then went with a M35P in 90 and finally to a M43 a couple years ago. I still have all 3 and all 3 still perform excellently.

BTW; Shooting 2 different (even the same model) chronographs side by side is not the method of comparison. Even shooting 2 strings of the the same lot of ammo over the same chronograph back to back will most often give slightly different results. This is because of the variations of the ammuntion not the variation or inaccuracy of the chronograph.

If comparison testing different chronographs they should be used with one behind the other so that each measures the velocity of the same shot(s). Even then you must also understand the second chronograph should give a slightly lower velocity for each shot. How much is dependent on the center of the screen spacing difference. It may seem like it wouldn't matter if they are right close together but with a quality chronograph such as Oehlers the difference is definately measureable. Granted there are accuracy variables with the measurements. Most of those are based on screen spacing and the Oehlers can be set from 2" to 10". If you want real accuracy you go with the 10" spacing.

The other great thing about the Oehler is the proof screen. With it you can calibrate the two different readings to each other and tell quickly if a reading is out of wack. With precise distancing of the screens you can also calibrate one set of screens to another set as with the M43 or a second M35P. With set distance screen spacing as found on most all other chronographs you get what you get and that's it.

I don't know how many times over the past 35 years I've had owners of other chronographs want to "test" their chronographs reliability against the Oehler to see if theirs was "correct". Having compared the test results of many Chrony's to that of the M35P with 2", 4" and 10" screen spacing (I won't even mention the M43 here because that is over kill) it becomes very apparent that one got what they paid for. Now don't get me wrong here, having any chronograph can provide valuable information to the reloader but to equate the accuracy and reliability of the Chrony to the Oehler M35P is a quatum leap in ludicracy.

The Oehler is indeed the industry standard. I'm glad to see the M35P back in production and will recommend it to anyone who wants the best chronograph available.

Besides, as mentioned in another post, Oehler backs their products 100% and what a Pleasure it is to talk to Dr. Oehler or the other employees on the phone. I've also had nothing but excellent service from them over the years. In '90 My M10 was severely damaged when my car was rear ended. The insurence agent had me call Oehler to get an estimate on repair. Dr. Oehler said they no longer made that model so the insurence paid for the a new M35P. Dr. Oehler called me back a couple days later and asked me to sent the M10 back. It was repaired and returned at no cost even though I had the new M35P. Now that's service! I've probably taken up more of Dr. Oehler, James (the other technician who built my M43) and the sweet ladys (sorry I don't recall her name) time with questions over the years than they ever made in profit from me. Never a short or cross word and always helpful. It is a real pleasure to deal with such people.

Larry Gibson

Assisting in insurance fraud is a level of customer service few companies can match.

I will say that when the printer on my 35P went out, Oehler had an entirely new unit on my doorstep within three days. They have terrific customer service but I didn't know exactly how good until I read Larry's post.

It wasn't insurance fraud unless Larry claimed a cost.

I wouldn't associate the word fraud with Dr Ohler or Ohler products even in jest. It just isn't done. He's truely been an honest man in all his dealings with me.

Maybe I am just sensitive in my old age, but, I didn't like the Joke.

My 2 cents.
rc

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Sorry, but until Chrony came along, you would hear of gun clubs pooling their money and buying a chronograph, but it certainly wasn't an item the average reloader had on his bench.
Believe me, I was there.

When and where was "there"?

I bought my Oehler Model 10 in 1971 (I think it was introduced around 1969). It sold for less than $100. The "Chrony" came along quite a few years later, was marketed on the coattails of the Oehler's success, and was a much less precision-built machine made to sell for less money in order to capture market shares. Herter's sold a Jurrasic-epoch tube-powered 117VAC model for around $125 or so earlier than the Oehler, but it was huge, heavy, marginally accurate, and required household current rather than batteries to operate.

I don't believe a lot of shooters fully appreciate how a chronograph works. It is a clock that counts the "ticks" between the time a bullet is detected entering the "start" screen and when it is detected entering the "stop" screen.

The clocks in all chronographs are essentially the same and very reliable, a solid-state chip that "ticks" at 1MM cycles per second (although the original Model 10 used a 400K clock).

The place that chronographs differ is in the screens (and in how the screens are held and spaced). The cheap (but useful) Chrony uses a 12" screen spacing which greatly limits the increments in which it can accurately measure velocity to only 1/4 the "fineness" of an Oehler (or other) using a 4-foot screen spacing. The Chrony's built-in error is magnified by screen spacing vagaries due to the way the box folds. If the box is not perfectly horizontal (opened exactly 180 degrees from its closed position), then the screens will tilt inward or outward from one-another. This tilt introduces spacing error, and spacing error is potentially a much greater influence on velocity error than anything coming through the electronics of the machine.

The less sensitive screens of the Chrony may register at various places on the bullet on different shots. It might trigger when the nose breaks the plane, or it might not "see" the bullet until it is halfway though the plane. This "detection" error, with a one-inch long bullet, might amount to a + or - half-inch. If there were a half-inch error in detection, that would introduce a velocity error of about 4%, or + or - 60 fps at 3000 fps. Coupled with the "coarseness" of readings with only a 12" screen spacing, this might add an additional 10-15 fps error, for as much as a 75 fps error.

Of course the "standard" error (not to be confused with standard deviation) may be somewhat smaller, but suffice it to say that the readings you'll get from a Chrony, while useful, won't profide you with the much more precise information of a chronograph like an Oehler.

Actually the agant was so damn happy I wasn't claiming any injury like whiplash, etc. that he didn't care what I did with it. Considering how badly damage my car was and that the other guys PU was totaled I probably could have moaned and groaned for around 5-10 grand but that wasn't my style as that would have been fraud.

When I told the agent the M10 could probably be fixed he said he didn't care as it was "replacement value" that mattered and the M35P had already been ordered and payed for. The M10 couldn't be replaced with a new one so there it was. The agent was happy, I was happy....end of story.

Larry Gibson

I met Ken Oehler at his booth at the Annual NRA meeting when it was in Kansas City. He had a sign in his booth that said something like: "Save $100. Buy an Oehler first."

It was meant for those who would be inclined to first buy a cheap $100 chrono, only to wind up purchasing an Oehler later.

I may have to eat some crow over this since I haven't any documentation. And I'm not on first name basis with anyone at either company, especially the CEOs. BUT I am almost positive that when Chrony came out, all of the other chronographs were considerably higher and the affordable Chrony generated several articles in the various mags.
Being a person that likes to go with the proven gear, at the time, had I been able to buy a Oehler for the same price as a Chrony, I would have bought the Oehler. Needless to say.
As has been posted numerous times, the basic principle is the same in them all, so efforts to declare one vastly superiour or more precise than the others is kinda silly.
When I got mine, I proofed it against two others since "everybody" was interested in the new toy. The other chronographs were a Oehler of some kind and another brand maybe Pact. I didn't go thru all that elaborate bullshit of shooting them end to end and all that. We just set them up and I shot once thru one and then another and then the final one. I did this until I had shot thru all of them several times.
IIRC the spread between all of the shots through the chronographs was less than 100fps. If the fellows with the other chronographs, had paid merely $100.00 for theirs, I don't think they would have been so bummed over my little tin box giving up the same data their's did.

Some years ago I had the chrono in question and can state that it worked as well as any consumer chronograph made for the purpose of measuring the velocity of bullets shot from centerfire rifles and pistols. I have only the most respect for Ken O and his work both on the chronographs his company has sold in the past and his work in the field of ballistics in general. If he were 100% behind this reissue I would not have posted on this thread. What I am concerned with is what the product will be and the support will be with Dr. O in a "supporting consultant" role in the company. There are machines loosely based on the same design now being sold that do not perform like the old 35s nor even as well as the very successful Shooting Chronies. There are allegedly reputable brands that have malfunctions that are obviously attributable to cheap parts that allow spurious readings when the angle of light is low like in the morning or evening. I have seen these machines and heard the @#$^^&&%* from their owners. In all cases that I have heard the followup--the maker either replaced the sensor--which fixed the problem ---or suggested blocking the sides of the machine--which did in one case and did not in another.

Ken Oehler has a reputation for honesty, excellent design, and quality of his products. This new guy I do not know about.........

When I lent my Oehler to a friend and he killed it, The machine had just been discontinued. He could not buy me a new one and I know he tried. He bought me a Chrony, finally. I used it for quite a few years after having tested it using the same rifles and loads I had shot through my old machine. I keep records of EVERYTHING. I was happy with the Chrony.

After years of shooting through chronographs and seeing them predict bad grouping because of wide variations in standard deviation, I actually researched the subject. You might care to also-- you might come to the same conclusion that I have and a lot of match shooters.... You can learn nothing from a chronograph that you cannot learn from a target and a thorough grounding in the basics of ballistics.

Chronographs in the hands of half educated amateur shooters are not tools--they are toys--they are not flash shielded--they are not shot through blast screens and the people using them are quick to complain that their load was not graphed the same as it was in THE BOOK.

And you wonder why Ken Oehler is lukewarm about a return to consumer sales???!!!???

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

why in the world would you ever shoot the chronograph

In another thread here many folks admitted to this error.....not just me!

In my case I was testing shot shells and the wad took out the Chrony.....Very dumb of me but it happened just the same

I read some place that there are 2 types of shooters.
1 is a person that has already shot his Chrony and the other is a person that is going to shoot his Chrony.
FS