I recently purchased a Redding Competition Bullet seating die. Prior to this I have been seating bullets with an RCBS standard seater. I have been getting runout (sinclair concentricity gauge)of .001-.006. I got these numbers with the standard seater by rotating the round progressively a 1/4 turn at a time until bullet it fully seated. I wanted more consistency, so I got the Redding Comp seater. After using the Comp seater for my .308Win I only got the same numbers. I was expecting better, or at least more consistent numbers. I went to the Redding web-site and read the tips section. It mentioned that "Note that to this point we have not talked about seating dies. That is because 98% of all concentricity problems exist in the brass prior to bullet seating." So that brings me back to brass. The brass I am currently using is standard Rem and Fed Gold Medal. I do not neck turn (as of yet). So my brass could be my problem. One question...Does any of the higher quality brass such as Norma/Lapua/Nosler more concentric in the neck and body? I am open to any suggestions or tips...

You wasted your money if you thought buying a competition seating die (of any name brand) was going to correct this problem.

Most likely the expander ball is jerking the neck off center. Do you use something like Imperial inside neck lube, now marketed by Redding?

Does that Sinclair tool have the ability to measure neck thickness? Then measure new brass, and once-fired brass. Compare.

An inexpensive way around this problem is to use a Lee Collet neck-sizing die. About $12.

Lapua is hands down the best brass money can buy.

Whiplash,

I am having similar problems to you with my .308win loads..I can't give you a 100% answer yet as I am still investigating..

I would star by measuring the concentricity of the brass as it comes from your chamber and then again once it has been sized. You can try removing the expander ball/stem and see if that makes any difference.

With my RCBS dies, the run out seems to be induced at the bullet seating stage, not the resizing stage...I am still trying to work why though..

onefunzr2,

Question about the Lee collet die...Once its set up correctly, does it mark the neck of the brass at all? I have one which leaves the marks of the three jaws of the collet on the brass but i suspect I have not set it up correctly?

Regards,

Pete

1. what is the runnout at the case neck after sizing but before seating.

2. If consisantly good I would try two things. I would recomend that you be very careful with the inside mouth chamfer and be sure it is being done as square to the case mouth as possible. (Best yet try a low angle chamferer like a lyman). The other would be try a different shell holder.

3. If the cases are not coming out of the sizing die with excellent runnout I will be glad to post a method to help center the sizing stem better.

4. Re the lee collet die--yes it can leave slight marks on the case mouth--you might try slightly less pressure and see if your collet still gives good neck tension. You may want to spin the spindle in a drill and reduce it's size ever so slightly.

These are some ideas that come to my mind--hopefully others will add more.

Thanks for the info....onefun mentioned about the expander ball pulling the neck off center...I do notice as the expander ball comes back out it does take some extra pull on the handle. I will look at the expander ball, and use Imperial/Redding lube for the inside neck. As well as being more carefull on inside chamfering. Hopefully this will be a fix. I dont have anything to measure the neck thickness..yet. I think I need to step into the neck triming arena, and get some more toys. Its a good thing this is just a hobby. Now If I just had more time! thanks again for the info.

quote:

Most likely the expander ball is jerking the neck off center. Do you use something like Imperial inside neck lube, now marketed by Redding?

Very likely contribuing factor. Try removing your expander stem and slip a small o-ring over stem so that when lock nut is snugged down on the o-ring it will hold stem but allow it to seek its own center within the male/female thread clearance. While stem is out, chuck in a drill and polish the expander ball using crocus cloth or very fine emery cloth. A slick expander ball + the Imperial lubricant or graphite will improve concentricity.

Regards,
hm

Sizing (with an expander) is usually the worst offender as far as runout is concerned, that is why most people and literature focus on that operation. Test your cases for runout 1) after they have been shot, and 2) after they have been sized, now you'll have a handle on how well your sizing process is working.

The seating operation is another common source of runout. Probably not as prominent as the sizing operation, but it is quite common for the sizing operation to also introduce runout.

I have been given all sorts of interesting advice how to get rid of this problem, some it good, some of it bordering on woodoo. The best advice I have seen thus far, is to make sure you only tighten your die lock ring, when the die is under pressure from the press ram, a case in the die and a bullet aligned in the seating stem.

Other people use rubber o-rings under their die lock rings, or even under the lock nut for the seating stem assembly. All this in an attempt to make the die "float" and thus allow die, case and bullet to align "naturally".

Try either method, it should not take too long to determine whether they bring you the improvement you are looking for.

- mike

thanks again for the info. Looking forward to trying these ideas...

Every since I parted with all the expanders in my dies, I've never had a runout problem to the degree I used to. Secondly, I DO turn all necks now.

These 2 steps have made a significant difference on range results.

I really need to start turning necks. Since I have 7 rifles in a .308 caliber of some sort. I would only have to buy one set of turning equip, mandrel, etc...

In theory.

Since I gather you'll be turning for factory chambers, you really only need to turn to make your necks consistent as far as neck wall thickness is concerned. IMHO, it would be a mistake to try to reduce neck thickness for use in a factory chamber - you'll end up working the brass a bunch more.

To just remove the high spots, you'll need to turn so you can see the turned "spots" on the neck over about 50-70% of the neck. Done right, you should be removing only about .001-.002" in the turning operation. However, brass varies, not only from manufacturer to manufacturer, but also from caliber to caliber. So even though you may want to turn many different .30 cal cases, the setting of your neck turner will have to be adjusted for each caliber/manufacturer you choose to turn. This somewhat negates the idea of having only one set of tools - in principle it is possible, but you could spend an awful long time setting up the tool for a different case...

Neck turning for factory chambers is a controversial issue, some people like it, some think it is a waste of time. What is for sure, is that turning is a pretty time consuming operation. One option you might consider before you venture into this, is to actually verify how much your necks vary in thickness, before you spend a bunch of time and $$$ solving a problem that may not exist. 1'st rate brass (like Lapua) is amazingly consistent, and last time I measured a batch of Lapuas, I had to cull very few cases with neck variance of more than .001". I personally don't believe it is worth turning at that kind of consistency, not unless you are shooting BR (with a custom chamber), or are deliberately turning to reduce neck diameter for a tight necked chamber.

Sinclair makes a nifty gauge to determine neck thickness variance (you can use the dial indicator from your Sinclair concentricity tool), and I believe there is an RCBS tool, which can also be used for this task.

- mike

If straight ammo is what you want, I highly, highly recommend the Lee collet neck die as has been mentioned previously. It's an inexpensive die, so why not give it a try? It offers other advantages too. For one thing you won't have to use case lube and second, it works the brass less than conventional dies with expander balls.

mho....good points. Lee collet neck die..hmmm. I like cheap. Like I mentioned earlier, this is some new territory for me. So any and all info is welcome. I did see that variance gauge in my Sinclair catalog. I still need to look at some other things that people mentioned to check. After that I will try some better brass (Lapua) and go from there.

Here's a copy of what I respond about centering the sizing spindle in a die. It's worked real well for me...again you should measure your brass after sizing to see if that's the problem.


My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.

Another vote for the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die. I have one for every caliber I load for now along with a Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back when needed. Don't miss all that lube in the neck. Concentricity is much better and I think the only way to gain any more is with neck turning. With the Collet Die I stopped chasing concentricity, but might start again when I have more time.

quote:

onefunzr2,

Question about the Lee collet die...Once its set up correctly, does it mark the neck of the brass at all? I have one which leaves the marks of the three (sic) jaws of the collet on the brass but i suspect I have not set it up correctly?

Regards,

Pete

Yes it does. The four segments of the collet leave slight ridge lines on the neck. So, if you use something like an RCBS Casemaster measuring tool, you'll get a 'bump' at each of the four intersecting quadrants when turning it under the dial indicator. BUT, they do not preclude you from measuring the concentricity.
I have 5 collet dies in various calibers, 3 off-the-shelf and 2 custom made by Lee. They all leave marks, unless I have all of them mal-adjusted.

I find that I can pretty much iron out the marks (or ridges) left on the neck after the first sizing by turning the case a bit and sizing a second time. In any event, the marks cause no problems that I can tell.

Well I more than likely found part of my concentricity problem....upon a more detailed look at my expander ball/decapper rod, I found the expander ball had an ever so slight wobble, which was cause by the slightly bent decapper rod where the exp ball threads onto the rod. I bet this slight wobble is about .006??? I e-mailed RCBS and explained everything....they e-mail back saying a new decapper assembly is in the mail at no charge. This isnt the first time I have dealt with RCBS..kudos to them!... I have learned a great deal about concentricity tricks and problem solving from this thread. And I am looking forward to using them....so thanks to all!!

You'll have the same concentricity issues with the new decapper assembly.

I was getting the same runout and I sized and expanded the necks in seperate steps.

Some of this is due to POS brass. Most of it is due to the amount of brass sized. The more brass you squeeze, the more runout you'll get. I did an experiment: I zized necks in .002" increments and all at once. Incrementally, runout stays below .002", all at once causes .004" to .006" runout.

I can tell you from experience that Kraky's method is the shiznit! I set up all new dies using that method. I don't have a die that won't give me less than .002 now, and I don't sort brass or turn necks. I have talked to a lot of highpower shooters and for sporter rifles it is their opinion that neck turning is not necessary. Having said that, I know Doc really knows his stuff, and I believe he is now sold on neck turning which he recently began doing.

I do turn the expander assemblies down with some emory cloth, or in most of my dies have replaced the stock expander with a Redding carbide expander. But the main thing is the Kraky method!

Good Luck--Don

The problem with Kraky's method is that it assumes the brass come out concentric from the die (w/o expander installed) and they do not. Some do and some don't.

I don't know that concentriity makes accuracy, but I am very suspicious it does.

I don't know that expander balls, used in the same step as sizing, do thier work by pulling against the shell holder, and cause excentricity.

1) Lee Collet
2) Redding bushing
3) Wilson Bushing
4) Removing expander ball on conventional sizer
5) Lapping out neck of die
6) Using expander ball in separate step to work when pushing

All of these techniques, I am suspicious, will help.

quote:

A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down.
Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands.

Kraky: How do you use the case to center the stem? I assume you use a piece of brass that consistently checks out within your expectations, then size it in the press w/expander stem in die, but not locked; then back the case out of die 1/8" or so and unscrew expander stem until ball contacts inside of the neck/shoulder junction and snug the lock screw? If I understand above quote, we are using same method but I add the o-ring below lock nut which allows very slight movement within the threads.

I decap the old fashioned way (punch/hammer) and like to set my expander as high as possible in the die so case neck is supported by die for first part of inside neck ironing. This helps get everything started straight.

Just checked a batch of WW once fired (not neck turned) brass run in RCBS sizing die set up in this manner which has polished expander ball, and couldn't find a single case w/more than .0075" runout.

Always looking for a "better way to skin that cat", though.

Just my opinion from many years of HP rifle match shooting, but I don't think .002-.003" runout appreciably hurts accuracy when shooting unsupported field positions within 200 yards. Did try to keep the 300 & 600 yard runout to a minimum, though.

Regards,
hm

Redding NS bushing dies are about the best press dies for holding runout down. I've given up using a press for my really accurate rifles preferring Wilson NS knockout dies with an arbor press or even a little rawhide mallet if you prefer. With the rig you have now you just might be able to get away with removing the expander ball altogether and see if it leaves you enough to hold the bullets in the necks.
That's your major nemesis, the expander ball. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

your not the first person to talk about removing the expander ball. I read a forum about froggy and that was one of 2 things that we did differatnly from me. (he is the guy that shoots golf balls at 1000YDS) is the expander not there for a reason? Im not being a dick i really want to know.

HM1996--did you mean a real .007" runnout?>?

quote:

Just checked a batch of WW once fired (not neck turned) brass run in RCBS sizing die set up in this manner which has polished expander ball, and couldn't find a single case w/more than .0075" runout.

That would be alot and I'm thinking you meant to add another "0" to the equation.
Re how I set the stem I usually have it slightly tightened...put the concentric, sized brass up to the ball and hold it in place while tightening. Sometimes you have to repeat the procedure. People will flame me but I've got forester dies and have had great luck with them but can match them usually with hornady because of how slick the eliptical expander is. I think concentricity is way over-rated in a hunting rifle--can understand the match type crowd. How loose is the chamber in a hunting rifle---a cartridge can't really line itself up with the bore very easily in a hunting rifle??!!

Ralph--are you talking about bushing dies where you keep sizing down?/ I've heard a problem with the bushing dies where if you don't do it in steps they get out of whack. Unless you have a bad shell holder I think FL dies do a great job because the whole body of the shell is being held in alignment while the neck is sized down. It's my feeling that if you don't get really great runnout by sizing with a FL die without an expander ball you either have a defective die or shellholder. ....or you're not consistantly placing the shell in the shellholder. Re not using expander balls I figure no one would put them in the dies if they weren't necessary. I DO BELIEVE A CRITICAL FACTOR IN ACCURACY...perhaps more than concentricity is consistant neck tension and bullet release.

quote:

That would be alot and I'm thinking you meant to add another "0" to the equation.
Re how I set the stem I usually have it slightly tightened...put the concentric, sized brass up to the ball and hold it in place while tightening.

Yep, did indeed leave off a zero. Should have read .00075". Have been having good luck with WW cases here lately.

How can you tell you are holding the sized case perfectly centered in die?

Regards,
hm

quote:

Originally posted by highpower223:
your not the first person to talk about removing the expander ball. I read a forum about froggy and that was one of 2 things that we did differatnly from me. (he is the guy that shoots golf balls at 1000YDS) is the expander not there for a reason? Im not being a dick i really want to know.

hp223

It's my understanding that Froggy and other benchresters have special chambers and dies made so that the die only sizes the neck enough to seat the bullet so they don't need the expander to resize the neck.

With the Collet die you don't use an expander ball I have put an appropriate sized washer on top of the shell holder so it leaves the bottom of the neck where it meets the shoulder the size of the chamber. Looks a little funny but it might help center the neck in the leade and the bullet in the center. Works on long necked cases like the 270 and 30-06.

Again, with the Collet Die, concentricity is minimized.

HM1996--The use of the concentric shell as a centering tool works best with a collet lock system like hornady. It also certainly can work with spindles that have a threaded nut. All I can say is give it a try--keep playing with that spindle till it makes good brass......I've gotten lucky and found the sweet spot right away but have also spent about 1-2 hours before hitting the jackpot. But, once you find it and lock down your nut you're set.

quote:

The use of the concentric shell as a centering tool works best with a collet lock system like hornady.

Is the expander ball inside the case during this process or just entering the neck?

Have never tried Hornady dies, but have been thinking about trying the Lee collett die. Only problem there is that my experience w/neck sizing is that after a few reloadings, the cases need full length resizing to prevent slightlysticky bolt.

While the method I have been using works 99% of the time, my 375 h&h dies produce .002-.003" runout, so may give your method a try once I completely understand it.

Regards,
hm

Just get it entering the case to get it centered. Maybe we should let this thread die a natural death----email me at kraky@charter.net
if I can answer more or be of more help. Thanks Don