Thinking about trading my 96/44 for a 444 in the Winchester Timber carbine. Any of you guy's use this caliber and what are your thoughts. Thanks, Phil

even swap? sure...

I wouldn't really cross the road for a 444.... but i would for a 45 lc trapper... i guess it's just my opinion...

now, if someone could make me a 500 jeffe, lever action....

jeffe

500 Hmmmm, sounds like a lot of pain to me . The 44 Mag. is a very good cartridge but the 444 has better limits for range and game size. Now a 500......Sweet Jesus!! Good shooting, Phil

I have owned a couple of Marlin 444's and foolishly allowed myself to be talked out of them. It is a very misappreciated cartridge and I have even used it to take a chuck at about 150yds. Course that could have been a fluke as I have never had the chance to try it again! The 444 has been used on Moose and Elk as well as deer and Black bear. I would love to get another one but I refuse to deal with our current anti-gun govt. derf

I had a .444 sold it and went to the .45/70. I am much more pleased with the .45/70. Far more bullet & brass availability, load data etc. You can do any thing the .444 can do + more.

Scout Master 54

I had a timber carbine. Loved it. Unfortunately had to sell it. However I would not buy another one. Reason was the ported barrell. Absolute murder on unprotected ears. I would not have been able to hunt with it. I would however buy the black shadow version or the long barreled traditional version.

Hey Smoker, I've had 44Mag rifles and currently have one of the short-ported 444Mar rilfes.

I'd say it depends on a couple of things. If you are shooting inside 125yds (+/- a few) and you are happy with your current accuracy, then staying with the 44Mag rifle makes good sense. It has less recoil, less cost to reload and less muzzle blast(very important).

If you intend to shoot a bit farther and you want to include larger Game, then the 444Mar gives you a bit of an advantage.

But, there is really nothing to keep you from having both. If you have to "Save $$$" a couple more months, so be it. Then you get the benefits of having both.

I've had my current 444Mar for a little over a year now. (Only Rustable Blue & Termite Food Stocked rifle in the Safe.) I was concerned about the muzzle blast being a bit much since it has the short-ported barrel.

Went out with some Factory Ammo (and no ear plugs) to see how bad it would be. Walked down in the woods a few steps and turned one loose. It sounded about like the muzzle blast of a typical 22" 30-06 using Factory Ammo. So, it will be fine for Hunting as is with my old ears.

I'd already called Marlin and they "would have" replaced the short barrel for the long non-ported one and sent it back to me for $140. I don't believe there is a better bargain for a new Factory barrel to be found anywhere. But I won't need it, however that is an excellent option for folks that feel the muzzle blast is too much.

Been loading both IMR-4198 and H4198 with 240gr bullets of various makes and the excellent 270gr Gold Dots. I might be using slightly less of this Powder than the Factory uses in their Ammo, or they may be using a slightly slower Powder, cause there "seems to be" a bit less muzzle blast with my reloads. But, that could be Full-of-Beans. Someone else may think the opposite.

The Iron Sights work just fine with my old eyes(kinda surprised me). Or if you decide to mount a scope, let me recommend going with an Aluminum Weaver Base. I wanted to put a real old (Made-in-El Passo) Weaver K3-C3 on mine. The Turret position wouldn't let me position it quite as far forward as I desired. So, a few minutes with the edge of a Flat File and I had another "Cross-Slot" in the Weaver Base right where I wanted it. Even touched it up with a Black Marks-A-Lot and you can't tell it's hacked in.

Also used Weaver Rings and I can take the scope off, leave the Weaver Base in place and still use the Iron Sights. The Weaver base has a wide slot right up the middle of it which allows you to be able to see the Irons. Replacing the Scope puts the accuracy close enough to the original Point-of-Impact that re-adjusting the scope just isn't necessary inside 200yds.

I wondered if I'd like the "Straight Grip Stock" since I've used the Pistol Grip styles for so long. So far it seems fine, because the non-trigger touching fingers of my on-side hand allows me to pull back against the inside of the Lever. I like a rifle tight in my shoulder and the checkering on the Forearm also allows an excellent grip with the off-side hand.

The Recoil Pad apparently works very well. I've not noticed any sore shoulder or flinching tendencies, which speaks well for it and the porting.

The Bolt slips right out which allows cleaning from the Rear.

Now the only concern is this Rustable Blue and Termite Food Stock. May end up sending it off to John Lewis to have the steel coated. And I'm looking at the Synthetic Stocks. But(as distasteful as this is to say), I may leave the Termite Food on it. That way I can "gripe" about the moldy Termite Food Warping if my shots are off a couple of hairs.

One state I hunt does not allow Buckshot. I've used 000 Buckshot in a short barrel M870-SPS a very long time in the SC Lowcountry on Man Drives through the Swamps and dense Woods. Since Buckshot is not allowed in KY, this 444Mar should work very well while stomping Deer up or in a Close-Shot Stand.

Best of luck to you which ever way you go.

[ 10-16-2003, 18:06: Message edited by: Hot Core ]

Thanks Folks! Great stuff, course I knew I could depend on my fellow shooter.....good people! Truth be known I'm probably getting a little antsy about having a new rifle. Course Hot Core Makes a lot of sense saying " ...nothing to keep you from having both" . Thanks again folk's, Phil

I own a Winchester Timber Carbine and love it. I also own a Marlin in 444. I prefer the timber carbine because it is so small and handy. The recoil is stout. and I like the cartridge. I owned a 45-70 but you gotta be a mortar man to figure out the trajectory. Different strokes....

I've played with a few of them over the years. I never liked the .444 much, but in all fairness it was because of the "pistol" bullets it used. I think the situation is better today with more bullet choices.

Never owned one of the ported variants...never will. I don't like the "BOSS" on the newer guns either.

Went to an auction a few years ago and in the bottom of a box of "stuff" I bought, were 4 boxes of Sierra's in .35 calibre, so the newest lever gun is a .35 Rem. Haven't cooked up a practice load in lead yet, but it sounds like work with the "micro-groove" barrel. For whatever reason, I like the calibre. It has more smack than a .30-30, less recoil than most lever guns, and a reasonably large bullet.

However, when I want "thump" from a lever gun, I still use the .348 Winchester and 250 grain bullets.

Hello from Scotland~

Smoker: "If" i ever had to choose to keep only one of my rifles (and lets face it over here it could happen) (they banned handguns)

It would be "Marlina" my 22" micro grooved .444 boy i love this rifle she shoots well even at 200 yards with both 200 gn tmj pistol bullets and with my favorite 320 grain hard cast bullets at around 2000 f.p.s you just can not help but smile

It can be down loaded to .44 abilty or pumped up !

Only word of warning 45 rounds of 320 gn loads in one sitting hurts like hell for a few days.....

Did i mention i love my .444

Check out the recent edition of the American Rifleman it has an article on reloading the .444

Scout Master 54

I went and done it! I should have the .444 in a couple of weeks. Damn shame what they're doing to you folks over there Englander. Somebody's got their head up their A.. for sure. I did see that article in the Rifleman and pulled it out and saved it. I thought I would post a request for once fired brass. Maybe I could trade some of what I have. Only need 100 or so .444. Thanks, folks. Phil

lONGBOB.....TOO LATE!

I can't believe that I'm the only one so far to mention the 450 Marlin. Does't the 450 pack more power than both the .45-70 or the .44/.444 ???

I personally like the 450 Marlin, but that's just me.

Happy Shooting,
Redrider.

The .450 Marlin is a factory-loaded equivalent of the heavy .45-70 handloads that have been used for the last 80 years or so by many. The company lawyers wanted a new round that couldn't be fired in a clapped out old trapdoor by some clueless idiot.

Sure but only in a Marlin if accuracy is important to you.

I have a pre-safety Marlin .444 w/ 22" barrel, and a Winchester Timber Carbine. With the same loads (270 Speer Gold Dot/55 gr H335) the Marlin's felt recoil is greater than the Timber Carbine's. That's just my reaction -- your mileage may vary. The Marlin is showing about 2200 fps; the Winchester about 2050 over my chronograph. The little Winchester sports a Leupold 2.5, and shoots about 1.5" groups at 100 yards. Certainly plenty accurate for a 200 yard rifle. I bought the Winchester to carry hunting deer in the beach fringes of SE Alaska in December -- ranges are short and someone hungry and furry may still be out prowling. I like it quite a bit, and have plans to acquire another one for conversion to .356 Win. I bought a 20" barrel a few months ago -- all I need is to find another rifle for the swap. I'd really like to find a Black Shadow to get the synthetic stock.

Bottom line is -- I like the Winchester .444 Timber Carbine and the cartridge quite a lot. I handload with 270 -300 grain bullets, though. When I want to shoot pistol bullets I generally shoot a pistol.

I think you'll agree with Muledeer that the 444 is better suited for the heavier end of the bullet range for .44. The lighter stuff will give you reach on coyotes and will be great for plinking.

I am assuming that you still have a .44 mag or two around that you shoot a good bit; I always have many more pistol bullets around than rifle bullets.

That is what I do, except in 45. Luckily, my 45-70 is a single shot, so I am not spending all of my extra time paper-patching pistol bullets. I use .458 bullets from time to time, but all my casting is in .452, and nothing over 300gn. It works well for me and you don't have to do the "paperwork" that I do....

[ 10-20-2003, 09:26: Message edited by: 45LCshooter ]

45LC, thanks for the input. Do you have a pet load that works for you? I'm reading IMR 4198 is supposed to be the most recommended with a 265 grain bullet. Bullets I've seen most are the 265XTP for Hornady. What's your recipe? Phil

Man Oh Man,
Do I ever love my .444 Marlin 444 22" Micro Groove bbl!!!!!!! With a 4x Nikon scope (weaver mounts and burris rings) and 265gr Hornady Light Mag ammunition, it will shoot an honest 1.5" group at 100yds...and when loaded with 300gr or 330gr bullets, it hits like the hammer of Thor. 300gr Speer UCSP @ 2200fps will produce devastating wound channels, and the 330gr Hard Cast Beartooth Bullet @ 2200fps will penetrate like there's no tomorrow. And has more Muzzle energy/velocity than the .450 Marlin. Combine that power in one of the most comfortable rifles ever, and you have a rifle that will handle anything you come into contact with out to 200yds, point blank range. It's definitely one of the most underestimated rounds out there! I was trying to talk myself into getting a 9.3x62, when I realized that if I loaded some 280gr Beartooth's in my 444 with max loads, I would be keeping up with the 9.3x62 with greater meplat and bullet diameter. This gun will do everything you could ever want to an animal, except for skin it, butcher it, cook it up and serve it to you on fine china.

If you're looking for loaded ammo, Hornady's Light mags are awesome, and CORBON and BuffaloBore also offer some powerhouse ammo!

LONG LIVE THE 444 MARLIN!!!!

[ 10-21-2003, 00:46: Message edited by: the444shooter ]

444 Shooter:

You did not leave any points out. Although I don't expect a 444 to compete with a 45/70 ( I never bought mine to do so), It sure does one heck of a job at what it was intended to do.

No one mentioned handloading Hornady's XTP bullets, particularly the 300 grainer. This bullet is bad news for whatever gets in its way, no matter what side of the sapling it tries to duck behind.

For "less recoil" may I suggest 20 grains of Blue Dot powder with the 300 grain XTP. Mild recoil, 1700 fps, and a big hole in the animal ( or burglar) you shoot it at.

Best way to describe a 444, is that it's performance at 100-150yds is like a 44 mag's performance at 25 yds.

While I don't care for the lighter New 444s, I love the old Marlin 22 inch barreled Model 444SS!
For a lever action, this is one accurate rifle.

Just wanted to thank you guy's again for your helpful input. Carbine arrived a few day's ago.........here we go!!! Phil

Hot Core,

My Timber Carbine had the non-vented pad. The design of the stock is thinner and a bit different drop than my Lott. Also, it is a bunch lighter. A recipe for pain.

I've never shot it under any type of roof. The combination of the vented barrel and it being so short is like having the barrel aimed at your ear. It feels nearly the same.

None of my buddies would shoot it more than once. They all hated it. I couldn't sell that gun fast enough.

(my old handle was Longbob and I have been lost in the system)

well that would be easy go with the 444 it's superior to the 44mag by far and as far as the 45-70 why buy one unless for nostalga reasons when one can buy the 450marlin and load it to the proper potental's

quote:

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Originally posted by derf:
I have owned a couple of Marlin 444's and foolishly allowed myself to be talked out of them. It is a very misappreciated cartridge and I have even used it to take a chuck at about 150yds. Course that could have been a fluke as I have never had the chance to try it again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The 444 has been used on Moose and Elk as well as deer and Black bear. I would love to get another one but I refuse to deal with our current anti-gun govt. derf

---

I agree with my good Canadian Buddy Derf here.
I have owned ONE 444 Marlin, and the only way it will ever change ownership is when it is WILLED to my son on the day I die. My 444 has always been more accurate than ANY 44 Mag I have ever shot.

As Scoutmaster 54 says " A 45/70 is better".... that may be to some, but I have never felt that my 444 has come up short on any sane job it had to do. I have had to face down a grizzly or two with it up in BC, but did not have to pull the trigger. However, with 6; 300 grain XTP bullets in the magazine, I was not pissing in my pants with the feeling I was going to be bear crap in 24 hours.

I love a 45/70 but have never seen the need to own one, with having the 444.

Of course, I'd swap off a 44 mag in a heart beat for even a 30/30 any day. I just don't care for a 44 Mag in a lever action, it is not accurate. I have a 45 Long Colt in a lever action and that thing is FANTASTIC.

Cheers and Happy New Year
seafire

444NAY,the 45-70 is the bear.Hand loaded with 54gr of IMR3031 and topped with a 405gr bullet in a Marlin 1895 rifle.Just don't get no better,too me.

quote:

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Originally posted by RKR:
My Timber Carbine had the non-vented pad. The design of the stock is thinner and a bit different drop than my Lott. Also, it is a bunch lighter. A recipe for pain.

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Hey RKR(aka Longbob), I'm not near mine at the moment, but I seem to think it has the vented pad too. I do like the weight of mine cause it tends to "hang" well in the Off-Hand position.

quote:

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I've never shot it under any type of roof. The combination of the vented barrel and it being so short is like having the barrel aimed at your ear. It feels nearly the same.

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I "hear you"! That had me concerned when I first got mine. That is why I really looke dinto the longer barrel. May still swap it to the longer barrel later on.

First time I shot it I was in the woods aiming at a knot on a tree. Wanted to see what the report would be like. A buddy and I both felt it was about like his 22" 30-06 as far as noise.

Maybe you just got some LOUD ammo.

quote:

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None of my buddies would shoot it more than once. They all hated it. I couldn't sell that gun fast enough.

(my old handle was Longbob and I have been lost in the system)

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Sure is nice that we all have that option. No need to suffer with a firearm that doesn't meet your needs or expectations.

What did you replace it with?

I have a 444SS and love it, but it wasn't my first. That was an Encore pistol in 444 Marlin.

I have nothing but praise for both of them. They are both accurate and deadly.

Hot Core,

I agree about the feel of the rifle. It is so small and compact that it is easy to confuse it with a 22 lever action. Except, of course, for the massive hole at the end of the barrel.

Not sure exactly which one I would consider that I replaced it with. There are several! Actually, I didn't buy another big bore lever action. I'm trying to whittle down my collection to just a few. Not that I don't like having a lot of guns, I just feel somewhat guilty that I don't take them out of the safe and shoot them.

They do have feelings, don't they???

Hey Longbob, I can really understand what you are talking about now. I agree it just doesn't seem right to have firearms and not shoot them. It seems a lot of folks enjoy owning firearms just for the sake of having them and don't shoot them very often. I'd say you and I are in a different group who enjoys not only having them but also firing them.

I've been a bit behind on shooting soem of mine, but a stroke of luck has opened up a place to go shoot this coming year which is realtively close. Should be able to go about any time I want. So, my New Year's Resolution is to shoot a whole bunch, with all the firearms I have, in 2005.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

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I owned a 45-70 but you gotta be a mortar man to figure out the trajectory.

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Loaded to their potential in lever guns the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin.

quote:

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Does't the 450 pack more power than both the .45-70 or the .44/.444 ???

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When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns the 45-70 Gov't and 450 Marlin are virtual ballistic equivalents.

quote:

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300gr Speer UCSP @ 2200fps will produce devastating wound channels, and the 330gr Hard Cast Beartooth Bullet @ 2200fps will penetrate like there's no tomorrow. And has more Muzzle energy/velocity than the .450 Marlin.

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If one loads an 1895 450 Marlin to its potential with a 385 grain cast bullet it will shoot about the same velocity and trajectory, and have significantly more energy than the 444 Marlin pushing a 330 grain cast 2200 fps.

quote:

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Originally posted by redrider:
I can't believe that I'm the only one so far to mention the 450 Marlin. Does't the 450 pack more power than both the .45-70 or the .44/.444 ???<br /><br />I personally like the 450 Marlin, but that's just me. <br /><br />Happy Shooting, <br />Redrider.

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I suspect the .450 is more powerful than the .444 and also more powerful than any .45/70 FACTORY LOAD I am aware of. But my No.1 in .45/70 will move a 400-grain Barnes original semispitzer (B.C. .389) at 2270 FPS from the muzzle. This beats any .450 Marlin load I know of. In addition, with the semi-pointed profile, this load holds up better than the .450, and shoots flatter than a .30/30 Win.

The .45/70 is more flexible for a handloader, because it is longer and will shoot heavier bullets or hold more powder, as you desire.

quote:

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Originally posted by Smoker:
Thinking about trading my 96/44 for a 444 in the Winchester Timber carbine. Any of you guy's use this caliber and what are your thoughts. Thanks, Phil

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Phil -

I've never had a Timber Carbine in any chambering, but I have had several .444s. Mine have all been in the 24" barreled, straight-grip stock version, and I've scoped them all.

With 50-to-53 grains (depending on rifle) of IMR 3031 and the 265 gr. Hornady bullet, they all would/will shoot just about 1" groups at 100 yards (some groups a bit smaller, a few a little bit bigger). That is basically a MAX load, so anyone using it should work up from below, of course.

It is an even better rifle with 280-to-320 grain cast bullets...especially if you keep them as soft as you can without getting leading. That's pretty easy to do, if you get a good bullet-chamber throat fit. It is usually blow-by that causes leading, not alloy temper.

I currently have lever rifles in .45-70 (Browning '86), .444 Marlin (Marlin Centennial), 38-55 (Win '94), 375 Win (Marlin pre-microgroove), .356 Win (M'94 AE), and .35 Rem (Marlin 336), and I think the .444 will easily hold its own with any of them for practical woods use.

Have fun, they're a vesatile ball, cartridge-wise.

Alberta Canuck

I owned a .444 once in my foolish youth (now Im Old &senile). Truth is I sold it & went back to a 45-70 cause the.444 was Like my exwife it was noisy!expensive to run!&most importantly IT

As I say it kicked like a MULE!!! I feel the 45-70 fits the Bill every time

I realize that ballistics charts show the .444 Marlin and .45-70 having a near equal trajectory; however, that has not been my experience at the range. It seems to me the ballistic coefficents on some of the 300g .458 bullets are exaggerated. My testing has shown the actual BC of the Remington .458 300g HP to be .128 and the 265g .430 Hornady to be .212. I've not had a chance to test out the 300g .458 Hornady (for BC) but it shoots to the same POI as my Remington loads.

Consequently, my actual range results show the .444 Marlin shooting about 3.5" flatter at 200 yards and well over a foot flatter at 300 yards than my .45-70, when they are both started out at approx the same velocity (2150 fps). I consider both of them at max 200 yard guns; however, I am just reporting my findings.