Last week I loaded up 20 rounds for my 404 Jeffery. The load was Hornady 400gr DGX on top of 75 gr of RL-15 using CCI 250 primers. The brass was new BEll brass. The rifle was sighted in using Hornady factory ammo and I loaded these rounds to be about 50 fps under the Hornady claim of 2300 fps. All cases were FL sized before loading and all charges were weighed on my beam scale

At the range 12 of 15 shots fired. I got 3 misfires with light primer indents and and 4 cases that I would say had flat primers. My final shot had a pierced primer so I stopped after that shot. At no time did I experience a sticky bolt or see any signs of pressure other than what I said above about primers.

So, I am thinking that I bumped the shoulder too far back when I FL sized the new brass and should have neck sized only.

I am fairly new to reloading for big bores and rifles in general, most all my experience is with pistol & shotshell

Any feed back is appreciated

Thanks!

Adam

Compare your resized cases to your fired cases. Measure them. Can you see the difference? The 404 has a long neck, try neck sizing 1/2 of it. Seat a bullet in the empty, unprimed case and see it it will chamber. Play w/ it and it will give you answers.

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Compare your resized cases to your fired cases. Measure them. Can you see the difference? The 404 has a long neck, try neck sizing 1/2 of it. Seat a bullet in the empty, unprimed case and see it it will chamber. Play w/ it and it will give you answers.

Yep, whos dies, whos reamer for the chamber? Mine is done w/ a Clymer reamer, I load w/ Redding dies. I do NOT full length size but partial size so the round fits easily into the chamber. It has never failed to fire, not once in more than 600rds.

Redding dies, PTG Reamer. Ive got a drawing of the reamer that PTG sent me. If I'm reading it right (and thats a big if), it identical to the CIP drawing I have. I just pulled a bullet from one of the duds: FL sized case is 2.850. Fired case is 2.860

I think a brass problem.

It might be worth reloading those fifteen fired rounds after neck sizing and trimming.
What type of rifle? old classics sometimes have head space issues or the sort.

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
Redding dies, PTG Reamer. Ive got a drawing of the reamer that PTG sent me. If I'm reading it right (and thats a big if), it identical to the CIP drawing I have. I just pulled a bullet from one of the duds: FL sized case is 2.850. Fired case is 2.860

If the reamer is right, it could be the chamber job is a bit off. It won't take much if there is a slight diff. in specs between the dies & the chamber. I understand that there are diff specs for the 404jeffery depending on who does the reamers. THere were .418 & .423 Jeffery's. Alf or RIP should be able to shed some light on the specs. Try partial FL sizing so the bolt just closes easily & see if that doesn't solve the problem.
I had a guy locally that had a nice 1909 done & the chambering job was either done wrong or wrong spec reamer & he also had headspace issues. Had it rechambered w/ the CLymer reamer & no more issues.

Yes like ozhunter suggests I would back off your resizing die so the neck only is sized on the cases you have managed to fire. Your load of RL-15 should be fine so it is most likely you have bumped the shoulder back. Make sure you use a good lube on the big cases.

On the misfires I suggest pulling the bullets and running the case into your properly adjusted sizing die. Punch out the unfired primer (slowly). Degreasing inside the case neck and your sizing plug before this operation may help to pull the shoulder forward enough to enable you to load up again and fire form the case. The long neck taper will prevent shoulder collapse when sizing that area without lube.

Adam, failing all else I would get a larger expander button from Redding, probably a 458 and set it deep as far down as possible, so you can expand only. Then partial full length resize so the new oversized neck portion acts as false shoulder so it will fireform to chamber spec.
Failing that I would use an unsized cast bullet set long to engage with rifling and a light load to fireform.

Many ways to skin this cat, but they all require the case shoulder to be shifted forward for correct chamber fit.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
Adam, failing all else I would get a larger expander button from Redding, probably a 458 and set it deep as far down as possible, so you can expand only. Then partial full length resize so the new oversized neck portion acts as false shoulder so it will fireform to chamber spec.

When you were describing your problem this afternoon, this technique came to mind. After reviewing here, I agree regarding this approach. Unless you already have an expanding mandrel, though, it may more economic to pursue a different route or simply sacrifice the brass (20 pcs). Consider that the 12 fired pieces of brass may already have incipient head separation.

The pierced primer I see as a different situation. Rather than a pressure problem, it is typically a firing-pin clearance problem that shows itself as pressures increase. Examine the gap between the bolt and pin, and the firing pin for damage to its tip. Look at your other fired brass for evidence of primer cratering. The solution may be in the form of a bushed firing pin rather than anything to do with pressures or headspacing.

Thanks to all who replied. I've just now had time to tinker with this problem again. After re-reading my post I realize I left my rifle info out.
Rifle is built on a new MRC 1999 barreled action. MRC did the all the chambering work using the PTG reamers.

I ordered some Norma brass and loaded 5 rounds of it after neck sizing only. Took it out to the farm and turned loose. 1st shot misfired, but the other 4 went off. Norma brass is made to the current CIP spec as is the PTG reamer so I have been told. This makes me think it is not a headspace issue as my chamber seems to be on the shorter side since I have to seat bullets a little deeper than the max COL shown on the CIP drawing.

Doing a little research on here, I saw that some of the MRC actions had a weak firing pin spring and some clearance problems, but this was a while back and is supposedly resolved. My action is just over a year old, but I am going to call MRC and see if I can get some feedback or a new spring. In the meantime I pulled the bolt and took the pin assembly out to check for damage. Looked OK to me, but I gave everything a good cleaning. Going to check the pin protrusion next.
Now I'm wondering if I am seating my primers too deep.
Any more thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Adam

I doubt if you are seating your primers too deep. I'm not even sure you CAN seat them too deep.

You could, however, not be seating them deep enough. For boxer primers to work reliably, they need to be seated to the bottom of the primer pocket in the brass, so that the primer anvil legs are against the bottoms of the primer pockets.

If a primer is not seated deep enough, the firing pin first has to push the whole primer farther in until it meets the bottom of the pocket and the primer anvil has something to hold it against the blow of the firng pin tip with the priming pellet in between firing pin and anvil.

Only after the firing pin has done that to a boxer primer which was not seated deeply enough, can it break the pellet against the anvil and thereby fire the primer (and cartridge).

If your seating is such that the primers and anvils are properly bottomed in the primer pockets, I would suggest measuring your firing pin protrusion from the face of the bolt when the pin is in the "fired" position. Normally protrusion should be about .058"-.060" on most CF rifles firing boxer-primed ammo. You could check with MRC for their recommended protrusion for the M1999 action.

Adam,

Once you get the firing pin sorted out you might also want to check on this.

I do not know if this is just an internet rumor or not. I don’t own 404 Jeffery brass or cartridges from either manufacturer nor do I own a rifle chambered in 404 Jeffery so I cannot verify myself. Anyway the rumor is: Current Norma 404 Jeffery factory loaded cartridges are sized slightly shorter dimensionally than the CIP standard so that their cartridges will chamber in many of the earlier chambered rifles. Current Hornady 404 Jeffery factory loaded cartridges are sized to the current CIP standard so their cartridges will not chamber in many of the earlier chambered rifles. If correct, I’m presuming that their formed brass will also be sized accordingly.

Again, can’t say whether true or not but you might want to measure the length to shoulder and the length to shoulder-neck intersection of both formed and fired brass to determine if there is an abnormal difference in their length dimensions.

Sinclair sells expander mandrels for large bore rifles. I just put one on the press after lubing the inside of the neck. Then I take my time while I uniform the necks.

Load a dummy cartridge and see how it chambers and look at how well it is extracted, and how well it is ejected.

I do not run the brass into an actual case sizer until it is time for the first reloading.

Look closely at the casing under a lited magnifier (kipe from wife).

If you are more curious or things haven't settled down, make chamber cast(s). Remember to wait one hour to measure the casting. With side lighting you may see if the chamber is banana shaped.

I will compare Norma and Hornaday cases and report back, SAH!

You might try to get some unformed (BLANK) .404 Bell cases and gradually size untill the bolt just closes with a small amount of force. I know they made such a case cause I still have some.If you can't find them than exspand and gradually size. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You might try to get some unformed (BLANK) .404 Bell cases and gradually size untill the bolt just closes with a small amount of force. I know they made such a case cause I still have some.If you can't find them than exspand and gradually size. roger

You could also bump the neck of factory brass up in a 44mag expander & then resize to just fit in 404j dies.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You might try to get some unformed (BLANK) .404 Bell cases and gradually size untill the bolt just closes with a small amount of force. I know they made such a case cause I still have some.If you can't find them than exspand and gradually size. roger

You could also bump the neck of factory brass up in a 44mag *****expander & then resize to just fit in 404j dies.

***** Good thought! A 45LC exspander may yeild a more deffinite headspacing. roger

Thanks for the replies! I'm truly stumped. I loaded up 5 more and headed to the range. I backed out the sizer die to do nothing but run the expander thru the norma brass to get the case mouths back round. I also took a box of factory Hornady DG solids. All 20 of the factory rounds fired and again only one of my handloads (Yes, my shoulder is a little tender this evening)
Since the factory stuff all works, I am thinking my rifle is OK and its my loads that suck. Wondering if my CCI primers are duds or now if I am not seating them deep enough. I have been seating them until they are just passed flush.
As I said in my first post, I am still fairly new to reloading for rifles. Some of this is going over my head with regards to using a 44Mag or 45LC expander, but I am thankful for all the advice. Can any of you elaborate on how a larger expander would help the headspace?
In several thousands of rounds of pistol and shotshell stuff and a few hundred 223 rounds, I never encountered a problem like this.

Thanks to all for your willingness to help a rookie big bore reloader.

Adam

Adam a larger expander will take the neck out past the size that will chamber and when partial full length sizing there is enough of the larger neck left at the neck - shoulder junction of the case to act as a false shoulder that will hold the cast back against the boltface. If youhave a larger expander button either using a 458 button on your 404 die (or a 44 mag or 45 lc) you need to set the expander stem so the button is as far down in the die as will allow expanding only of the neck of your 404 case. Having done that you set your full length sizing die out 2-3 turns from contact with your shell holder and size a case. You will see the sizing has only come part way down the neck and created a false shoulder. If you try to chamber this case you will find it will not do so. By turning you full length die into the press a 1/4 turn at a time and trying another case you will move the false shoulder back towards the actual shoulder. Keep trying a case at a time with 1/4 turn of the die into the press until you can just drop the bolt on a case with a little resistence. This means the case is held hard between the bolt head and the new shoulder and can not move forward with the firing pin strike that may be the cause of your mis fires. If you use a different case for each try you will avoid excess case working but having found a crush fit will have to run them all through. It would then pay to anneal your case necks. Having found and established a crush fit and run all your cases through the die at this setting, subsequent re-sizing can be done with the die turned in 1/8 to 1/4 turn further where your bolt handle just drops without the felt resistence. This should have all your brass now set for your chamber and will be problem free. Have fun with this great old cartridge.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:

As I said in my first post, I am still fairly new to reloading for rifles. Some of this is going over my head with regards to using a 44Mag or 45LC expander, Adam

The idea is to expand the neck to the shoulder larger than your chamber will accept. Than you gradually size down the length of the neck and move the partial shoulder till your rifle will just accept the case.
When I first started to reload I had a similar problem that I just remembered. I had zealously OVER LUBED my cases and got lubrication into the priming compound. The craters in the primers I remember as being quite large.If you need more help feel free to E-Mail me. roger