Finally, my 'smith called yesterday and said, "It's ready. Come and pick it up!"

New 26" SS Lilja barrel in 30-06 Ackely Improved; same pencil contour as my old factory barrel.

I plan on starting with 180 Nosler Partitions and AB's and 200 gr Speers. In reading John Barsnes' article a few months back about load work up, he suggests with todays quality of rifles, it's the bullets which will make a difference.

My powders to start with will be Rel 22 and 25, H1000 and IMR 7828ssc. My question is how much to buy? Three bullets and 4 powders to start with. Cases will be new Win cases and Fed 210M or WLR; more likely the Fed 210M. So, to work up both pressure and accuracy, how much of each component would you buy?

Once you figure out what bullet you want which it sounds like you did, then I would buy 1 maybe 2 different powders for load work. Esox357.

Esox357,

The way I read John Barsnes' article, I should start with one powder and many bullets.

to start off with id try one powder, primer type and different bullets. if your velocity spreads are huge just try a differnt primer and see how that goes. dont forget you can also mess around with the seating depth! this is no bs but i changed my 1" shooter to half inch and sometimes it shoots a little less by getting 5 thou closer to the lands so its worth playing with the seating depth a bit!

if all else fails, or your not getting the velocities you want then change powder.

I would get some IMR4350. Take the bullet you want to use the most and load it close to the lands. Load up 5 or ten about 1/2 grain under max for standard 06 of each. Keep track of your results while F/F and sight in. targets will tell the story. Adjust seating depth on the best one as you go up to max for your case, figure about 5%.Once to the range to fireform and find powder. Once to find final charge and AOL, third to make sure everything is right.

GSSP: You ask a complicated question.

First of all you are not shooting a bench rest rifle. You are also not shooting a highpower target rifle. Your rifle is a hunting rifle. The acceptable accuracy of a hunting rifle is in my opinion, about 1.5 MOA. But I would not hesitate to go hunting with my 44 Mag 1894 Marlin which is about a 4 MOA rifle. It is all about keeping your shots to the distance you can consistently hit a pie pan. Hunting shots are often taken unsupported, at best leaning on a tree, rock, or your hand, and under these circumstances you will find that your aiming error will greatly exceed the accuracy of the rifle.

I have a one powder that I really like in the 30-06 with heavy bullets and that is 4350. I have used it with great success with 175’s, 190’s, and 200’s in my match 30-06. I have no doubt that should be your first powder to try in the Ackely improved. If it exists, find a short cut version. Gunwriters are paid to promote the latest powder so you do not often read them recommending an old as dirt powder such as 4350. But 4350 is really an excellent powder in a number of cartridges. If you do not get the velocity you want, because I am certain you will get excellent accuracy with 4350, then try something else.

Earlier postings assumed you were going to use one bullet, and I think that is where you should start and stop. Find one good hunting bullet, based on advice, performance, cost, published data, and load that. The only time you will need to change bullets if you are going after a wide variety of game. Like from gophers to Grizzles. The best bullets made today perform very well over a wide velocity range, and will give good expansion and penetration whether you are shooting deer or elk.

Primers. I have used WLR, Fed, and CCI #34 primers in my target rifles. And have shot perfect scores at 500 yards with all of them. Primers are not all the same, but it is not a variable you need to test or worry about. Just pick a good brand name primer and develop your loads. My recommendation is pick WLR because it has been the least costly and is a magnum primer. Magnum primers provide stronger ignition at low temperatures. Which is why military primers are magnum primers.

I pick a cartridge OAL that will reliably feed from the magazine. Determining distance off the lands is something that works in target rifles with jump sensitive bullets, but whatever increase in accuracy you might see will be inconsequential in a hunting situation.


I use a chronograph in developing loads, I will load ten rounds of each powder charge weight. I shoot ten, record the velocities, and look at the groups. At some point you will have blown or leaking primers and you should stop there. Somewhere below the max load is a group that is perfectly acceptable with decent velocities. Go with that.


If you want even better advice, buy a good .22 LR rifle and practice, practice, practice. Developing shooting skills through constant practice is far more important than developing loads. What is not realized is that Gunwriters are shills selling gear and equipment and have convinced the public that they can offset their lack of shooting skills with the latest gizmos.

I guess it depends on how much time and trouble it is to get to the range. If you have to drive 45 minutes across a city of 3/4 of a million to get to the range you might take several bullets to make the best use of your time and gas.

I have to apologize. I thought I asked the question in a clear and concise manner, but many of the answers I received, IMO, had nothing to do with my question.

I first referenced John Barsness' April 2006 Handloader Magazine article "Testing a New Rifle", page 105-106. He states "I've done this more and more lately, partly because the bullet is normally the most important component in rifle accuracy. Different powders do have an effect, but normally a diffeent powder is not going to shrink groupsif, say, a certain bullet sprays 3-inch groups with the frist powder tried".

He goes on to say "Another reason to test various bullets is that today we have far more information about which powders work with various bullet/case combinations".

And last of what caught my attention to his writings is "The simplest way to test a new rifle is to use one powder with several different bullets".

So, the gist behind my question. Let me restate it.

I'm going to start with the Nosler 180 Partition, Accubond and Speer 200 Hot-core. I will pick one powder; probably Rel 25. If it works than I have access to MRP-2, which is supposed to be less sensitive to temps that the Rel 25.

So, taking into account the number of bullets to 1st, work up to max pressure, then the number of bullets necessary to find an accurate load via, probably, the Audette Method. How many bullets of each brand, style, weight, would you buy? I'm thinking a box of 50 each (Speer 200's come in a box of 50) to start.

If nothing avails itself from Rel 25, the off to try Rel 22, or H1000, or IMR 7828ssc; at 3 boxes of 50 bullets each.

I guess I just answered my own question unless anyone has a differeing opinion.

Hope this clearifies my intent.

Hey Big Al, The reason you got so many diverse answers is simply because most everyone uses a slightly different Method of Developing Loads. Nothing wrong with that, just different.

If you like John Barsness Method, have at it, but it is not what I'd do. And I feel sure since what I do is not in agreement with John's Method, you will decide it does not answer your question precisely. But this is what I do.

1. Buy a box of Sierra MatchKings or Nosler B-Tips(your Accubonds "might" do as well) in a weight as close as possible to the weight you eventually want to Hunt with.

2. Look through the Manuals and select the Powder that appears to give the highest possible Velocity with that weight bullet. And if Temperature Extremes are important, add that to the thought process, which might shift you to a different Powder.

3. Seat the Match Grade Bullets 0.005" Into-the-Lands.

4. Use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method. Maybe 15 different Load Levels.

5. Record CHE & PRE while running this Initial Test.

6. Check the Target for Harmonic Clusters. If you have them, continue with this Powder with your other Load Development. If not, go to the next best Powder and repeat this Test until you do see Harmonic Clusters.

You can Fine Tune the Clusters by varying the Seating Depth, but since you won't be actually Hunting with this Bullet, skip right on to the Bullet you intend to Hunt with and repeat steps 3, 4, 5 and 6.

If you used the Accubonds to do this Initial Testing with, and you had a Harmonic Cluster(s), Reload 3 at each level around the Cluster and reshoot. Maybe 15 shots at the best Cluster.

7. Once you have the Harmonic Cluster located, run additional Tests by adjusting the Seating Depth so the Bullets are not touching the Lands. Use 2-shot groups here and 6 different Seating Depths starting at 0.005" Off-the-Lands, then 0.10" OtL, 0.015" OtL, etc. That uses 12 Bullets. You are looking for the Smallest 2-shot group and use that Seating Depth in step 8.

8. Fire a series of Cumulative 1-Shot Groups into a single Target. Clean the barrel between each shot and Lube it as you normally would. That would use the 8 Bullets remaining in the Accubond box "if" all went well.

So, buy at least 2 boxes of the exact same Lot Number of the 50-count Accubonds or Partitions. That way you will have 50 to make Kills with.

If you use the 100-count Speers, then one box will work.

Of course, if the initial Powder does not provide the Harmonic Clusters, then those shots need to be added to the total when they are re-shot with the next Powder.
---

Don't hurry any step of the process. This also does not include Spotter Rounds to get you onto the Target to start with. Nor does it include Bullets for Re-Shooting if you Flinch a couple of shots - they will need to be reshot.

Best of luck to you.

I think 4 powders is too many to start with. Lots of variables, and a long and expensive process. I normally pick 2 bullets and no more than three powders, preferably 2. The powders I start with are generally those producing the highest velocities. Some manuals list a "most accurate powder" for certain bullet weights, which would be a better place to start if that load meets your velocity preferences.

One can cover a wide range of calibers with h 4350 and H4895. Both work in the 3006.

I would think the powders you suggest are really too slow burning for optimum performance in the specific ctg. You would probably be better to start with powders in the 4895, 4064 and 4350 burn rate ranges.

Your choice of the 180gr is excellent; however, the powders you have mentioned are too slow for 180gr bullets in the 30-06. You'd be better served to use 4350 or 4831 with that weight bullet. I shoot 7828, 1000, and RL25 in my 7mmRM with very heavy bullets, and RL22 and 4831 in my 30 mags.

For hunting American game, any of the 180gr bullets is sufficient. Those that have good reputations for accuracy are Hornadays, Noslers, and Sierras, and tons of deer have been killed with WW and Rem bullets.

I personally like the first three bullets mentioned, and if you will do a search here on 30-06, I believe you will find 4350 and 4831 are the propellants most frequently mentioned in this cartridge. Kudude

assuming that you loaded for the 30/06 i would start with my best load powder,bullet, primer,and brass. i would use this load for fireforming your brass to AI. pay close attention to the accuracy during this process.
once your brass is formed i would limit myself to the powder with which i had earlier success(30/06). select the the bullets in the same manner. when i went from 250/3000 to 250AI i used one powder and three bullets( for various applications). i guess i got lucky.

I agree with the recent posters re your powder selection. Have you checked the Nosler and Speer manuals? Of the powders you mention wanting to try, Nosler lists only RL22 for the 180 Partition and the .30-06 AI. Do you have a reputable source of load data for these powders and bullets in this cartridge?

With regard to working up a load, my usual method is to pick a bullet based on what I want the rifle to do, and I plan to do with it. I then pick a powder from the appropriate manual and work up from there. If that powder works for that bullet, great. If not, I try another powder. My logic is that many powders are useful in many cartridges but bullets or not. Put another way, if the 4064 doesn't work in the .243, I can try it in my .375, but a .243 caliber bullet doesn't work so well in a .375. Since I don't own multiple rifles of the same caliber, I avoid having lots of partially used boxes of bullets around.

Regards,

LWD

Pick the bullet you're going to use to hunt with. Pick a powder that gives relatively high velocity and high load density. Primers are cheap by the hundreds, so buy a couple of different brands. Then have at it with charges, seating depth, primers, etc...you might get lucky and get a good load before you beat your brains out trying umpteen different powders and bullets that you don't want to use in the field. If you do wind up with extra components that don't work for your "ideal load", you can usually assemble lower velocity loads that will group nicely and use them to practice or for short distance shots if you do any deep woods hunting. Did I say practice?

For the record, I am well aware that the powders I've chosen are slower than the traditional pick of powders. And, for those who seemed to think I'm shooting a standard 30-06, read again; 30-06 Ackley Improved is the caliber of topic.

With that in mind, If you were to peruse many loading guides, you would, of course, see that the slowest traditonal powder in the 30-06 are stuff like IMR/H 4831, WMR, N560, MRP and Rel 22. Many go to "compressed" loads at their upper range with the 180 gr bullet in the standard 30-06. And too, many stop short of or go just to SAAMI max which, if memory serves, is 60K PSI.

Examples follow:

Hornady = H4831, 44,300 CUP

Nosler = Rel 22, 61 gr compressed, 2872 fps in 24" Lilja barrel.

Nosler = N165, 59.5 gr compressed, 2616 fps

Nosler, 30-06 AI max 60K psi in 24" Lilja barrel, interesting that Nosler does not compress Rel 22 yet gets 2985 fps.

Nosler, 30-06 AI, N165, 63 gr gets 2812 fps. 3.5 more gr than std '06 and 196 fps more.

Speer holds their pressures to 50K CUP.
H4350, 58 gr compressed.
Rel 22, 62 gr compressed.
H4831sc, 62 gr compressed.
IMR 4831, 59 gr compressed .
Rel 19, 59 gr compressed.
IMR 4350, 56 gr compressed.
AA 4350, 57 gr compressed.

Interesting to see the comparison between the 4350's. IMR, being the fastest of the trio gets only 57 gr compressed, where as H4831sc, beling the slowest goes to 62 gr.

Here is a neat item.
Hodgdon, H4831 60 gr., 2710 fps, 44,300 CUP
Hodgdon, H4350 57.5 gr,2798 fps, 49,300 CUP

Note that even though H4350 get more velocity, it does so at a higher pressure and less powder. Now if I compress more H4831, I can increase my velocity while probably matching the pressure of 4350. But why start with something as "slow" as H4831 when I could go slower with H1000, IMR 7828, Rel 25 or MRP-2.

Accurate powders likes 60K max PSI
AA4350, 57 gr. 2715 fps, 56,400 psi, compressed!
AA3100, 59 gr. 2611 fps, 53,300 psi, compressed!

Alliant, Rel 22, 60 gr, 2710 fps yet holds their psi to 51,000.

Winchester, W760, holds their max pressure to 57,100 psi and 2625 fps in a 24" barrel.

Vihtavuori, takes the 180 Speer spt to 57.6 gr of N160, getting 2603 fps in a 24" barrel, but with only 49,300 psi.

Ramshot runs thier Hunter powder to 55,600 psi pushing the Barnes X and 57,230 psi pushing the Hornady 180 SPBt Interlock.


With all this in mind, I plan on pushing to 65K PSI with slower than tradional powders. I can put more in the case, get more velocity (the chrongraph will tell) and yet, with less pressure than "traditional" powders.

See where I'm going with this?

If you're still not a believer, look up posts by Ackely Improved User.

Oh yeah!

And Hot Core, YEP!

Have fixed up 15 incremental, .4 grain, loads, .005" into the lands and 10 fouling/sight in loads. Bullets used are Nosler 180 BT's.

I do use CHE. I know I will remember what PRE is as soon as you remind me. Just can't seem to bring it from my memory banks.

Thanks for a great post!

quote:

With all this in mind, I plan on pushing to 65K PSI with slower than tradional powders. I can put more in the case, get more velocity (the chrongraph will tell) and yet, with less pressure than "traditional" powders.

See where I'm going with this?

Big Al,
If you are going to spend your time on this you should get a chart that lists the specific gravities of the powders you play with. It will help you pick the densest of the slower burning powders. You can also substitute the thinnest lightest cases. In the process of running at maximum pressures you may find some brass is harder and will take higher pressures. Seat the bullets out as far as possible. Use a 26" or 28" long barrel. Just be sure that you chronograph your results at reasonable pressures.
All those tricks using slower burning powder are older than dirt. Seems like that is what Rocky Gibbs did back in the '50s.
Sorry to say there is no magic.
The velocity of the bullet is directly proportional to the area under the time pressure curve.

Ireland2,

On it!

Have already done a case capacity comparison. Winchester seems to hold the most; sufficiently hard.

I'm currently starting my bullets .005" in the lands, which is giving me 3.398" OAL, base of case to tip of Nos BT. Interesting note; my 30-06 factory barrel would allow 3.556" OAL, or .163" more. In the Ackley barrel, the bullets bearing surface/boattail angle junction is inline with the shoulder/neck junction.

My Lilja 3-groove, 1:11 twist barrel is 26".

Hey Big Al, That would be Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE).

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:
...With all this in mind, I plan on pushing to 65K PSI with slower than tradional powders. I can put more in the case, get more velocity (the chrongraph will tell) and yet, with less pressure than "traditional" powders. ...

Now I have a "trick" question for you. How will you know when you each 65KPSI?

By the way, I have a link I'd like for you to check out from the AR GunSmith Board. Not trying to say you are headed in this direction, just want you to be aware of what I call Cumulative Metal Fatigue.

Best of luck with that new rifle.

Dear GSSP,

I'd suggest that you do a Google search on 30-06AI improved and read everything that comes up. I think that you will get most of the answers you are seeking. Kudude

Hot Core,

I knew that! I forgot it! I use CHE all the time. Not a trick answer; Ackley Improved User!

I can't wait to read the stuff on the link.

Kudude,

Already have; here and elsewhere too!

Thanks for the concern, all of you!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Big Al, ...How will you know when you each 65KPSI?...

????

Hot Core,

Actually, it's a velocity I'm aiming for; about 2950 to 3000 fps. With everything I've read, I should be able to hit that mark.

Hey Big Al, Best of luck to you!

GSSP,

I think if you will look at the vast majority of posts here and elsewhere you will see a pattern that has been touched on here, but not fully stated. In sum, it is the opinion of many, experienced reloaders that the powders that you have selected are far too slow to achieve the speeds that you are seeking.

I have done a fair amount of experimenting with 30-06 in its standard form, and understand that you are only getting about a 7% capacity increase with the AI, which is a velocity increase of no more than 2-3% and I am being generous according to sources that I read.

You are shooting a rifle with 3"more barrel than I, and I generally allow +25fps for one additional inch of barrel length. I regularly get 2700fps with a 180BT or Partition with my 30-06 and 57gr of IMR4350, and 2750 with 57.5gr of IMR4350. I have gotten 2800fps with 58gr of AA4350 in the same rifle. I find 58gr of IMR4350 to be too stiff by at least a half grain in my custom 30-06.

Alliant does not show data for RL25 for the 180gr 30-06 loads (It reports RL25 for 180's in the 300WinMag). It does show RL19 and RL22 loads, max for both is 60gr. I have used 59.6gr of RL22 and 58gr of RL19 behind 180gr Noslers, and got 2660 with the former and 2650 with the latter. It is apparent to me that I am getting better velocity from 4350 than either Alliant numbers. If I went over max by a grain, as I have with the 4350, I still would be short of 4350 performance, which I obtain at about 60KPSI.

I have used 7828, RL22, H1000, all the 4831s, and 3100 with 30-338, 300WinMag, and 7mmRemMag. The first and last cartridges have the same case capacity, the 300WM, a bit more. I'd agree with AIUser, who you cite, that 30-338 is about the perfect case capacity for that bore. I have found that the slower numbers work better in the 7mmRM, consistent with AIUser's findings.

My target and hunting load for the 30-338 is 71.3gr of 4831SC. 73gr is reported as max in 30-338 and I agree with that. I get about 3100fps with a 73gr of old 4831; however, and 3000fps w/ the target load of 71.3gr which is all you need, and my rifle will shoot a ragged hole with 71.3grs, and only .8"grp with 73gr.

Compare this with velocities for 7mmRM: Max loads of 4350 and 4831 produce about 2850-2875 with 160gr bullets, RL22 produces 2900fps at near max, 870 produces 2960fps with a stiff bolt, and 7828 produces 3080fps with a max load. This reflects that this cartridge requires slower powders with 160gr bullets (a proper comparison in .284 bore for the 1780 in .308).

While you will pick up some case capacity with the AI version of the 30-06, it will not be close to the capacity of the 30-338. The 30-338 can't properly use powders as slow as you propose, and the AI surely can't. You will get some improvement because of the extra barrel length, but that only will run about 75fps.

Take my data, add 75ft to it for barrel length, and add 2%vel increase for AI, and you will have a close approximation of what you can expect from your rifle AT SAFE PRESSURES. My loads are anything but wimpy. Your reference, AIUser, is way beyond a safe pressure at 65KPSI. He reports that he can only use cases a few times without primers falling out. This is not acceptable, safe reloading practice.

I have taken the time to clarify the situation you have presented because you apparently are basing many of your assumptions on AIUser's data and magazine article which really doesn't address this issue. I hope you will take my comments in the spirit they are offered. I believe that it will save you some time, powder, and bullets (and maybe a messed up rifle).

You can achieve 2900fps or close to it with a 180gr bullet in a 3006 with a 26" barrel, which isn't shoddy and still be in a safe zone DEPENDING ON YOUR RIFLE with either 4350 or 4831 or RL22. You could top out slightly lower. Typically, custom rifle have tight chambers. I strongly suggest that you work up you loads, and not try to wring every last bit of speed out of it. If you can not get 7 reloads from a new case, you are TOO HOT I don't care what AIUser thinks.

I have used the 180BT and 180Partition a bunch, and at 2800fps they will shoot through any animals for which the .308 bore is appropriate at ranges you'd hunt them. An extra 100fps will only extend you range about 25yds.

A fellow named Watson, who wrote an extended essay on the 30-06 a couple of years ago and whose research I respect, reported that the 190 and 200gr loads will really perform with the new slow powders. While they may be significantly slower than the 180's, they retain their energy incredibly because of their higher BC. You may want to try them with slower powders.

Again, I'd suggest one of the 4350's as a starting point for 180gr bullets and 4831 and RL22 for your project with any good 190 or 200gr bullets (except the BTs which are too frangible.)

Good luck, and please let us know how it works out. Happy Holidays! Kudude

Kudude,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I had my reply made out earlier but accidentally hit the “back†button and lost everything. So, now I’m trying again on Word and will copy and past to the board.

I too, like many here who have responded out of what seems to be concern, thought along the lines that anything slower than Reloader 22 was the limit. But the info I have gleamed from AR has perked my curiosity. Those people in general have been Ackley Improved User, M-98, and a reloading tech at Hodgdon.

I’ve also done a fair amount of reloading for the standard 30-06; about 32 years worth if memory serves. I’ve only gotten my 22†Mag-na-Ported, Rem 700 barrel to 2750 fps with 57.6 gr of H4350 before calling it quits. Always wished I had one of those 2800 fps barrels I hear people talk about. If I’m not mistaken, and please correct me with proof if I am, the SAAMI max is 60,000 psi. Again, if I’m not mistaken, some cartridge cases run a SAAMI max of 65,000 psi.

I realize you are being generous with 7% powder increase and 2-3%. But I hope to show you how to increase that by as much as 10%

Yes, my 30-06 Ackley, Lilja barrel is 26â€, so I’ll gladly take the 25 fps per inch of velocity increase you quote. Hope it will bump my 2750 fps to 2850 fps.

Now, I’ll take a little liberty and add 70 fps to that 2850 and settle on 2930 fps. Quite achievable, I believe, in the Ackley. The 70 fps comes from Rick Jamison’s 30-06 Ackley article, published earlier this year in Rifle/Handloader. I can’t remember which. Their was a 70 fps average increase for the 180 grain loads.

Let’s look at Reloader 22. From memory, it’s one of the slowest powders in the Nosler manual and many published 30-06 loads. Here is where M-98 comes into play. The first post here on AR’s “reloading†is the pressure data for the 30-06. This data comes from the Australian Defense Industries Lab. Probably pretty much on the money. I think I’ll trust it! M-98 shows data which uses Reloader 22, Nosler 180 partitions, Lapua cases and Fed 210 primers. ; all easily obtainable here in the states. He shows a 24†barrel. His 62 grain load shows a mean of 59,600 psi and 2807 fps; within SAAMI specs. He then takes it up a bit to 62,500 psi and 2850 fps. I wish he had taken it closer to 65,000 psi so I wouldn’t have to extrapolate, but I will. Maybe he will chime in here and enlighten us. With a little comparison between the two and taking it to 65,000 psi, it should increase the velocity about 37 fps. So, add 50 fps (his 24†vs. my 26â€) for a longer barrel and 37 fps for the increase in pressure. Now were talking 2850 fps plus 50 fps plus 37 fps, or 2937 fps. Again, quite doable but that is in a standard 30-06 case. We’re talking Ackley here. Again, add 70 fps and now it’s at 3007 fps.

Would I try this with Reloader 22? Sure! But I want to try it with slower powders. Why? Last 2005, Rick Jamison, in Shooting Times, was talking about the, then new, IMR 7828ssc. He says one of the best ways to increase velocity, at the same pressure, was to increase the amount of “slower†powder in a case. The problem with that is that slower powders take up more room and a guy can’t get enough dang powder in the case. He says how he was able to get about 4 more grains of ssc into a 22-250 case than the standard 7828.

Today, in talking with a reloading tech at Hodgdon, we discussed, in general terms 1st, using a slower than normal powder to increase velocity in conjunction with compression. Looking at manuals which use compressed loads we see that, for the most part, the compressed powders used are on the slower end of the “normal†30-06 powders. I asked the tech about compression and he stated that the thing to watch out for was fracturing the extruded powder grains and changing the powders burning structure. I asked how a reloader could “fracture†the pencil like grains. “Using something like a wooden dowel and really compacting†is the example he gave. I then went on to ask about the pressure utilized to seat the bullet into the cases neck; even giving examples such as a case which had it’s powder, first dribbled in via a drop tube, then vibrated and brought up to a ½ to full neck full of powder. “No problems†he said.

So, with Ackley Improved Users experiences, I want to walk, not run, down that road with stuff like Reloader 25, H1000, 7828ssc, MRP and MRP-2 in the 30-06 Ackley Improved.

One of my first thoughts/concerns was by putting that much powder into a case; the pressure would “extrude†the bullet out the case and into the barrels lands. Not so says Ackley Improved User. Just use the fl die w/o the expander button and the extra tight neck will take care of the rest. So far, 68 grains of Reloader 25 hasn’t budged my Nosler 180 BT even .001†in 4 days from a standard 30-06 case. AIU’s favorite 30-06 Ackley load is 70 gr of Reloader 25, Win or Lapua cased for 3100 fps in a 26†barrel. Will I hit 70 gr.? Dunno! Probably not. My goal is 2950 to 3000 fps.

Your example of 60 gr of Rel 19 is a good example of the amount of pressure which can be increased due to a slower powder. The Alliant manual gives 60 gr, 57,100 psi for 2750 fps. M-98’s example gives 62 gr, 64,800 psi for 2832 fps. Add 50 fps for 2†extra barrel and 70 fps, you get 2952 fps.

Now compare the Alliant load of 60 gr of Rel 22, 51,500 psi for 2675 fps with the same Alliant load of …………60 gr of Rel 19, 57,100 psi for 2750 fps. Do you think you’d get more velocity if you increased the Rel 22 charge weight to a similar pressure as the Rel 19? You would if you compressed it. Then, if you went to an even higher, yet sane pressure, more velocity.

Kudude,

Again, I really appreciate your comments. As I reread your post, I see logic in your response. Have yet to shoot my new AI; hopefully, this weekend if it doesn’t snow too much. I’ve got two groups of 15 ladder loads ready to buck in new Win 30-06 cases; Rel 22 and 25.

I’ll let you know how it turns out.

Merry Christmas to all!

Big Al

I noted some of the comments regarding "metal fatigue." Hard for me to imagine that working within the PSI limits of a brass case would significantly stress the chrome/moly steel action of a first-rate bolt-action rifle, designed to withstand 160,000 PSI. I suppose this could happen, if one shot 1000s and 1000s of rounds, but the barrel rifling will be shot-out long before the action gives. SAAMI specs for the '06 are significantly influenced by the presence of many substandard military or off-brand guns chambered in '06. Given equivalent strong-action rifles, there's no reason why an '06 can't be fired at a max PSI of 65,000. Even beyond, but one runs the risk of popping primers and getting some escaping gas in the face or getting a stuck bolt when you need that second shot to bag the buck-of-lifetime. Finally, Federal and Hornady are using the compression/slow-powder trick in their so-called Light Magnum or High Energy rounds. Clearly, they are confidence enough in the technique to market the ammo and absorb the liability risks - the PSIs are likely well within SAAMI maximums. I'm surprised reloaders don't use this approach more to achieve maximum performance. Finally, there are better powders on the market now, for example MRP, WXR, Re22, Re25, VvN560 (soon available VvN570), etc. Why not use them! 4350 is a good powder, but now (2006) we can do better, especially with the heavier bullets. The basic idea is to maximize the area under the time/pressure curve, by filling the case with the maximum amount of the slowest burning powder that will just reach the desired PSI maximum. Believe it or not, Re25 wil get you to circa 65,000 PSI in an '06, if you're willing to tap and pack the powder. I can get 71.5 grs of Re25 in a '06 AI Lapua case - velocities are amazing, and I get at least 5 reloadings from the cases. Regards, AIU