Can anyone advise on safe minimum loads for use in a 303 Brit with slow powder and heavy cast bullets? The powder of choice is AR2209 (which is between H4350 and H414). The makers only list a 'normal' max load of 45gr compressed for a 215 jacketed bullet. My bullets are either 200gr cast or 220gr cast. These behave differently to jacketed bullets in that they engage the rifling easier, have less jump and are not held tightly in the neck. Top end, full tilt loads disintegrate the bullets in my medium - I want controlled expansion and good penetration. ADI suggest not to use less than 75% load density. At those levels, pressure is mild. Can I use less powder with a heavier bullet? I have upped my min with the lighter bullet and that is too fast.

Ar2209 is H4350, they are one the same except for the name tag. ADI makes a batch and puts their name on it, then ships the next lot to Hodgdon where they paste on theirs.

I believe all Hodgdon "extreem" powders are ADI.

Well, that's what I thought too but according to ADI, AR2209 lies between H4350 and H414 and according to the load data available, that is where AR2209 sits.

A follow up - I loaded 38.6grs of the stuff behind a 200gr cast and patched bullet and the pressure seemed just fine. (Not too low).

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Well, that's what I thought too but according to ADI, AR2209 lies between H4350 and H414 and according to the load data available, that is where AR2209 sits.

A follow up - I loaded 38.6grs of the stuff behind a 200gr cast and patched bullet and the pressure seemed just fine. (Not too low).

Actually ADI claims AD2209 falls within 5% of these and 1/2 dozen other powders.
http://www.adi-limited.com/han...uide/equivalents.asp

There is a tolerance - I`ve heard from 3%-5% depending on source - in burn allowed by the different powder companies that at times even allows for the powders to switch places on the burn charts. The grouping of H414/H4350 as one powder I believe is due to ADI finding them to have the same rate in their tests.

Edited to add;

quote:

That should be a +/- 3%-5% tolerance

i have used 38-39 grs of h-414 in my 30-30 with 170 gr cast for my hunting load, it's pretty stout but accurate.
velocitys were in the 2300 range

Col. Nonte had a book out with a detailed description of the manufacture of powder. Ball or stick. Bottom line, when they turn the machine on, they don't know exactly what will come out. Yes, stick or ball, and small or large but it is very broad...

After the "run" they test it. IF it is close to a "commercial standard burn rate" they set that lot aside to blend with other lots and add coatings that adjust the burn rate... etc. And when "close enough" (not exactly the same!!!) they "can" it in the standard container... (Long ago I bought Hodgdon in paper sacks.)

Everything else is bulk packed for ammo loaders with labs that work out their own loads by lab test... Government arsenels, etc.

So when one says 5% and they other 7% and someone else 10%... All could be right... It always has been "buyer beware."

4350 (any) and 414 are a bit slow for lead bullets per Lyman. Greased cast just don't have the resistance that a jacketed bullet has and the "barrel time" for the powder to burn.

Hodgdons takes questions by email... might inquire there.

Mr. Ackley had a theory, REPEAT "THEORY", about detonations. He suspected from experience that the primer explosion packed the powder into the front of the case without "getting it burning" well. He wrote of digging a plug of powder out of some cartridge... The powder that was burning then raised pressures in this sealed container until it blew...

Hotter primer, if available?

Very carefully, VERY, VERY CAREFULLY adding a "filler" might adjust burn rate/pressures to your advantage. Faster powder would be better.

Rocky Gibbs worked with duplex powder loads with two powders in the case. I CANNOT recommend this. Just after WW II. Less liability by todays' standards. Less powder availability too. Your backside if you must try. Luck.

I have seen ADI using Hodgdons load data for some of their powders - AR2208/Varget comes to mind. I'm thinking that the H4350 made and blended by ADI, is to a tighter 'tolerance' as per Hodgdons requirement and what we are getting is ADI's 'normal' AR2209. It doesn't really matter, It's just that one shouldn't use the limits of H4350 for AR2209.

I do use a filler - cotton wool. Not a lot, just enough to fill the small space. I have tried AR2208/Varget and it does work but it has a larger air-space. My theory with AR2209 is that I am using a heavier bullet so it 'might' be giving enough barrel time to burn and 'resistance' to build up enough pressure to ignite properly. I used this principle in my hornet. Instead of crimping the neck to ignite the Lil'Gun, I used a heavier bullet and stoked the case full with enough powder to get things going! It worked. But Lil'Gun is weired stuff! Wonderful powder actually. For light test loads with cast, I use 'contaminated' Lil'Gun (it got some AR2208 in it). It burns well with very low chamber pressure.

quote:

Hodgdons takes questions by email... might inquire there.

Thanks for the tip!

quote:

Hotter primer, if available?

I could but I waited a long time for my brick of Fed 205's. Fed magnum primers are available. I did my initial testing with large pistol primers because I was short of Fed's and they also show up pressure early but that could be deceptive as they could also produce lower pressure!

quote:

... it's pretty stout but accurate.
velocitys were in the 2300 range ...

Is H414 more dense than H4350? My 303 Brit can only hold 46grs of AR2209 (to the base of the neck). 2300fps with cast! And accurate! I've always thought the 30-30 was an ideal cast bullet cartridge. (303 Savage also). It just seems so well proportioned and has a long neck to hold the bullet protected.

Thanks for all the responces!