The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Will a bad barrel work out??Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
I've often heard that you can make a bad barrel shoot with carefull handloading and I have actually done this several times, that is, I have made them shoot better, never great.. but over the years I have decided if that barrel is "touchy" or "finicky" just toss the sob and get another one...I can't stand a "silly" barrel. How do the masses of cyberspace feel on this issue? ------------------ | ||
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| <Bill> |
I concur with you Ray. You can't make a bad barrel good, but you can always make a good barrel bad. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
This mass of one thinks you are exactly right!! In my opinion if you cant find a accurate load(1.5"@ 100yd or better) and there isn't a bedding problem rebarrel it! Have Fun | |||
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one of us |
I hear from guys all time "if you can hit a pie plate at 100 yds your good. Same guys buy ammo the night before season on sale at Wal-mart,don't care what grain just a green box. Most of the masses don't know they have a bad barrel and won't replace it if they knew because of the cost.See quote above. Most reloaders would replace it in a heart beat IMHO | |||
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one of us |
Spinning your wheels / wasting time on a crappy barrel. Get a new one.  ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
It depends. Mostly I agee if it is truly a bad barrel, something like a slag pit in the middle, or bent, etc. But, many times the problem is a constriction from either machining the exterior or welding to it after the barrel is formed. In those cases lapping can cure the problem quickly and inexpensively. | |||
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| <redleg155> |
Ray, You should know better than to ask that question in cyber space. Personally, I think most of the problems with bad groups or inability to find a decent load are with the prople doing the shooting/loading than with the rifles out there. I've often shot someone else's "ho-hum" rifle and been very surprised with the accuracy. But then, not to many folks my age had the chance to shoot several hundred thousand rounds downrange at taxpayer expense either. On the same token, I'm not a very experienced handloader - very conversant and well read, but I haven't loaded for much more than my 9.3x64, .45 ACP, shotgun and a few other small runs of other stuff. Point here is that all the loads I've come up with and/or put together from manuals have performed great. Maybe I'm just a lucky handloader...? I like to think that I have a bit better than average understanding of handloading though. To sum up, I think there are more good rifles out there then there are good shooters and therefore, the answers that fly here may be skewed slightly. Best regards, redleg [This message has been edited by redleg155 (edited 12-08-2001).] | ||
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| <Don Martin29> |
It's been said that "a bad barrel is forever" If the barrel contour is heavy then it's not that difficult to figure it out and lap or recrown it. But a featherweight bbl that changes a lot as it heats is an added problem. I recrowned my M-52 and it shoots better than ever. That may be the area that can be imroved the most on many bbls. | ||
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| <lokey> |
Amen brother redleg!! ~lokey | ||
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| one of us |
Redleg and Lokey, The thing that I have found out is a good barrel will shoot any load accurately for the most part. A real good barrel will shoot all loads and bullets weights accurately to the same spot with about 2" to 3" differential up and down..Now thats a good barrel. If cost of a barrel is factored into this equation then one must do with what he has and make the best out of it...I had to do that at one point in my life but now I don't. So lets omit that factor for the sake of conversation. ------------------ | |||
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| <JohnD> |
Ray, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post - good barrels SHOOT. I have two highpower target rifles with Hart barrels. Load development is a non-issue for both of them. Read the load off the jug of Varget, fill 'em up and win a match. | ||
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| <lokey> |
Rey, Come on now man, if were throwing out the money factor then hell, give me a custom barrel every time. Unfotunately, 95% of us can't afford to go re-barreling a rifle. Patient reloading will always bring out the best in a rifle, and that is usually good enough for most of us. And my standards a pretty high (.5" is what I'm looking for). Besides, I love the challenge of tayloring loads for a rifle. That's great if it shoots any load well, but it isn't much fun. ~lokey | ||
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| <Valkyrie> |
Ok while on the subject. I have a Rem 700 VSSF in 22-250 that shoots only one or two load combinations well. Any other load and the best I get is 1"-1 1/4" moa., usually worse. Now being that, the loads that do shoot well are usually under 1/2" moa if I'm doing my job behind the trigger. So I have a finicky factory barrel and I'm thinking of replacing it so I can use a variety of loads for different applications and put together a real tack driver for groundhogs beyond 300 yards. What does it cost and any ideas on what I should do to a stock rifle that shoots pretty good, sometimes? TIA | ||
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| One of Us |
Dud barrels are like dud women. In both cases they just make life difficult. I would rather have one good rifle nicely set up than 6 "trouble makers" Good barrels even try to shoot with shit loads and bedding. Dud barrels fight you. Mike | |||
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| one of us |
I personally think it is rather simple, if the gun can't shoot at what you think is acceptable, replace it. | |||
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| <Santa Claus> |
I just sent two to Pac-nor, and am waiting the return. I do not see it being out of anyones ballpark at 425.00 ea. I sent them the McMillan stock to glass and barrell. Total of my packages should run 1,000.00. Thats not too bad if you think about having 2 tack drivers that will have cost me about 1200.00 each. You can spend alot more money searching for accuracy, but you are better spending it up front and getting it done right..I know, because I have tried for years to get these two rifles to shoot.I spent a hell of alot of time and money to get them to shoot to no avail. My father gave me these rifles so I will not sell them, so this is my last resort, and it should have been my first. I should have sent them off years ago. I will keep you posted as to the outcome. [This message has been edited by Santa Claus (edited 12-08-2001).] [This message has been edited by Santa Claus (edited 12-08-2001).] | ||
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| one of us |
Ray, u r rite. as the fellow sez, dud barrels are like dud women. you can watch a lot of life sift thru your fingers while trying to get them to do right. So why bother. While some folks enjoy cutting little 4350 logs in two and the other anal stuff needed for the perfect reload, I prefer to spend that time on the range or afield. I don't have a prob with those folks but if a rifle doesn't show good potential with a couple or three proven loads, it is rebarreled or becomes someone else's rifle.  | |||
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one of us |
Money is not the only factor. I think all of us go through the cycle of trying to make a bad barrel work -- just because you haven't learned better yet. Bedding, load development, firelapping, all things we need to know, and it is part of a "rifleman's" learning curve. But, the second time around all this gets a little older. The firelapping wears out the barrel, the carefully developed tack driver loads don't work during a cold weather hunt, etc. Then, the third time around, you already have two tack drivers, so you just send it to Shilen, and forget it. Or Lothar Walther, or a Pac-nor. I suppose that is another learning curve. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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| one of us |
You usually get what you pay for. Thats why I've gone to Lothar Walter barrels & never looked back. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I once had a friend who is known for his colorful language put it this way: "If you use a decent (expletive) bullet and a reasonable (expletive)load then the (expletive) rifle should shoot pretty (expletive)well. If not you'd just as well tear the (expletive)apart because it's no (expletive)good and trying to get a bad (expletive)barrel to work will just drive you (expletive) crazy! He's probably (expletive) right. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:
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| <heavy varmint> |
It depends on the use for me I guess because I do have a bad barrel on a rifle, but I did get it to shoot a 140gr. bullet using H4895 at 2850 into a 1.5 three shot group witch will serve fine for deer in my neck of the woods but I wouldn't keep a varmint or long range caliber very long that didn't shoot under an inch, 3 shot groups, 5 is asking alot from a sporter weight and I never seem to shoot enough to heat up a barrel while hunting. But I do have to admitt that a rifle that only likes one load and one bullet weight is kinda like a radio that only picks up one station. | ||
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| <TGWoody> |
quote: What do you consider a bad barrel? How far off at 100yrs. 2,3,5"??? Please take this next question in good spirits, I know that you have your act together and I respect most of your postings, :~/ but, ,, How do you know for sure that it's only the barrel creating this issue, and not any of the other components? TGW | ||
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| <Big50> |
I never realized you could get almost any ammo/load to group well without load development in a custom barrel, hell on most of my rifles I have enough money into load development I could have paid for custom barrels on each of them. I have been under the impression that they just shoot a little tighter groups with certain loads as well, and clean easyer. After you opinions on the subject maybe you could tell me what you think of this barrel, 308 Win. 20" Win70 classic compact. Thought you could make an example out of this gun. Should I toss it for one that will shoot all these without effort and further load development. Is this pie in the sky, or music to my ears. I am seriously sick of picky barrels. All loads using Varget, 210m and Win cases .633 moa 165 GKSP (factory load) .675 moa 44gn 165 GKHP at 2.775" oal 1.440 44gn 165 Scirroco 2.855" oal 2.630 moa 45gn 180 Scirroco 2.855" oal 1.000 moa 43gn 155 palma 2.775" oal 1.600 moa 43gn 165 Nosler BT 2.855" 1.800 moa 44gn 168 A-Max 2.855" oal 1.630 moa 43gn 165 XLCBT 2.855" oal 1.750 moa 43.5gn 150 XLCBT 2.800" oal
[This message has been edited by Big50 (edited 12-09-2001).] | ||
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| <Don G> |
In answer to Ray's initial question, NO!
That looks like a normal factory barrel. I'd shoot the GKHP at deer! Try the GS Custom bullets for an accurate premium. Don | ||
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| one of us |
tgwoody, you have a good point. I think everyone should "work thru" a couple of duds for the learning experience if nothing else. You will learn some tricks that you can use to make a good shooter shoot better. | |||
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one of us |
I've had more than a few rifles that shot like crap. In each case the bedding, barrel or the crown was the problem. If I get one like that and REALLY Really like the gun I'll re-crown it or cut off the last inch of the barrel and re-crown. I make a cerrosafe cast of the chamber and look for mis-allignment or an off-center chamber. You would be suprised at the number of these that show up. I rarely have seen a barrel screwed-up internally but they are out there. Lots of Bubba's with cleaning rods and over-zealous bore lapping! If none of the above cures the problem, I re-barrel it or take it to a gun show and sell it to someone who thinks he can cure the problem by clever handloading! Life is too short to mess with bad barrels!. | |||
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| one of us |
I have to agree with you Ray. | |||
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Moderator |
Ray, You are spot on. My 35 whelen AI is a prime example of a "bad" barrel. It has a midway barrel. With its preferred load, 3 shots go 1 - 1 1/2" at 100 yds. Drop the charge 1 grain, and loads open up to 3-5", for a 3 shot group! Change to a 225 gr, and the POI shifts nearly off the target. The other problem is, the preferred load is a hot load. I had figured the ackley chamber would allow me to operate at std whelen velocities, with reduced pressures, but I have to run it up close to 358 norma speeds to make it group! I burned up over a box of bullets and a pound of powder developing a load, not to mention many load sessions. I can typically dial a gun in with 2 or 3 sessions. Some folks are willing to try 3 or more powders and a 1/2 dozen different bullets to make a gun shoot, now help me with the math, if you're spending ~$200 or more on components to make the stinkin thing shoot, how can you say you can't afford a good barrel? If you have more then one big game rifle, then you can afford one with a good barrel, you simply haven't made it a priority. | |||
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one of us |
Ray, I say you are right on. When I was on active duty in the Navy I used to hang out with the USN's Small Arms Training Unit guys at Camp Elliott in San Diego. They did a lot of testing to support the Navy's competitive shooting program. They would try a barrel, and if it did not shoot a known good load, it bacame another post in the ground around the flower garden...jim ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Don't give up on a barrel too quickly. If after 100 rounds, I am not happy with a barrel it gets major work or gets gone. The most extreme example I can remember was with a 338-06 from Harry Mc Gowen. At 96 rounds I just was not happy with it. Then shots # 96 to 100 went in the "same" hole.......... Tried the same load again,and it did it again. This same load 50 rounds before was just so-so. That barrel ended up being one of the finest I have ever owned. Why the sudden change?? Sure wish I knew. Then again a Midway 7mm Mag barrel right from day one puts everything under an inch. Just no way of telling when or how a barrel will shoot. | |||
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| one of us |
I think I've just recently learned a lesson about mucking around with loads to get a rifle to shoot. I bet I spent more money in bullets, powder, brass, and of course the most valuable commodity TIME trying to get one of my rfles to shoot than I ever would have spent if I had just given it to a competent gunsmith and said- "put a new barrel on it!" | |||
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