Heres the data from alliant: 357 mag, minimum OAL 1.580", 158 gr LSWC, bbl length 5.6", Fed 200 primer, Bullseye powder, 6.5 charge weight, velocity 1320 fps, chamber pressure 33,900 psi.

Heres my recipe: 357 magnum, 158 gr Hornandy LSWC .358" no gas checks, 5.8 grains Bullseye powder(10% below max listed on their website), CCi primers, OAL 1.590", all shot from a ruger blackhawk with 4 5/8" barrel at 20 yds.

The recoil and bang seemed normal although I was wearing hearing protection. The recoil wasn't out of control. Couldn't group withing 20" consistently even from a rest. The primers did seem a little flat with fine lines in them from revolver case nothing too out of the ordinary. Loaded and shot my first 20 rds ever today. It only took 20 rds of this stuff to lead the piss out of my barrel. I have shot several hundred lead bullet loads in past weeks from a buddy in 38 special and 357 mag. I haven't had a bit of leadin yet until my 20 rds today. Also for the first time I notice white flash burn on the front of my revolver frame. I never noticed this before on other bullets. I even verified the Alliant data in My modern reloading book by richard Lee. I figured up a 10% drop to start and the rest is mentioned above. I even checked 10 or more powder dumps on a scale with a friend helping who owned the scale so I know I was damn close to 1/10th of a grain of my measurements. Anyone help me? Why the leading and why the white flash marks on my revolver frame from a starting load. Cory

I think your bullets may be too soft for that loading, particularly if those 20 rounds did give you some leading. Bullseye is primarily intended for lower velocity target loads (re; white flashing). For 357 high velocity loads, something more on the burning speed order of 2400, H110. WW 296, etc., is generally recommended.

[ 03-16-2003, 00:37: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

so what can I do if I have 280 bullets left and 1 new lb of the powder? Cory

Use the bullseye with those bullets for TARGET loads only! If you have some .38 Spec. breass, I'sd use 3.5 grains of Bullseye with the 158-grain bullets.

So if I want to use bullseye powder for 357 loads (as an example) I need to find a harder cast bullet? Cory

I just finished loading 20 38 special rds. Same bullet and 3.3 grains alliant bullseye seated to a proper depth. I went down to the river to shoot them. I also cleaned my barrel as best I could. I got alot but not all of the lead out of it. Anyways I shot all 20 38 special loads and guess what. It leaded my barrel again bad! Boy am I confused. I understand part of the fun is to get a load worked up so it best matches my gun but man I sure didn't expect these kind of leading problems after so few rds especially what so many people have told me about lead loads not needing gas checked in a revolver. I am using starting loads. Wow this is weird. Cory

Other than the fact that I use Winchester primers, my load is very close to yours (6.0gr Bullseye) out of a 6" S&W I'm not getting any leading to speak of, even after 100 rounds.
For 38's I run 4.0gr Bullseye without leading.

As far as the white flash goes, I don't notice it with mine (stainless) but I'm wondering if your buddy uses Unique? It tends to leave a smoky dark residue thats not real noticable on a blued revolver (but shows up somthing ugly on a SS).

You stated your buddies load workes well for you. What is the load data your buddy uses? Can you duplicate it?

cmcalpin2002--

I'd be suspicious of the hardness of the bullets and the lube.

I shoot cast wheel weights with blue LBT lube and no gas checks in a 41 mag up to 1250 with no leading.

Is it possible that these hornandy bullets are not pre lubed? They don't feel very greasy or slick. I can take my fingernail and scratch the bullet pretty easily alot easier than the wheel weights I have. Cory

[ 03-16-2003, 02:21: Message edited by: cmcalpin2002 ]

Can't you SEE the lube in the lube grooves?? This is indeed strange. But I am still of the opinion that the bullets are a bit soft. Why don't you e-mail Hornady, tell them what bullet you are using, and describe the problems you have had-give them the lot number of the bullets you bought.

Use the Hornady's for reduced loads. If you have any 38 cases, use those. if you're going to to shoot lead at high pressures, you'll need harder bullets. You might want to try Oregon Trail. They have a good reputation and they still may offer a sample pack of 20 or so for free. They did a couple of years ago anyway.

You also should go to a slower powder than Bullseye. Pick a mid-range burner (Blue Dot/2400) or drop down to Win 296/H-110. I know you'll burn more grains/load, but at 30K+ psi pressures, you're better off with something in that range.

Martindog

cmcalpin, Hornady and other brands of swaged lead bullets use a dry lube: Hornady's is clear while Remington's, for example, is black. Also, the near max. charges of B'eye are for jacketed bullets or hard cast bullets with gas checks. Perhaps a shift to a slightly slower powder, using harder CB's, or less B'eye or all three will do the trick. Btw, you can remove the bore & cylinder throat leading with a piece of "Chore Boy" copper scouring pad (soapless variety) wrapped around your bore brush. Use it dry and follow up with your favorite bore solvent. Hope this helps, ...Maven

Guys thank you. the Hornandys I got have no cannelures or grooves just a checkerboard style pattern on the shank. I too think they are too soft. I should probably go with a slower powder but I didn't know (I am learning). Can someone please clarify with some good solid advice here. I also talked to a guy tonight who does tons of reloading for everything and has for years. Lots of people here in town recomended me to him. I told him my problems and did not like what I heard. He pretty much flat out told me YOU CANNOT SHOOT A CAST BULLET OVER A 1000FPS WITHOUT THE PROBLEMS i WAS EXPERIENCING. He said to use cast in 357 mag I needed to load them down to 38 specs. He said that bulleye was too quick but he also said it didn't matter whether I switched to a slower powder I would still have problems with lead. Then he said if I bought some harder cast bullets I could get close to 1000 fps without leading my barrel but that was about it( not the 1200-1300fps so many people and solid publications claim otherwise). He said I should "bite the bullet" and just buy the jacketed for general purpose use. But I don't want to do that. My problem has been from the start that I want a good hard hitting "general" load for a cast bullet that could take advantage of alot of the 357s extra power, but not the max, that I could also target shoot with because I didn't want to constantly be dicking around with my sights and shooting variables. I figured if I found a good lead hard hitting target load everything would stay the same no matter what I was using it for. This guy Charlie contradicted everything I read in good publications, books, and from knowledgable reloaders I have met in places such as these. Opinions are opinions but facts are facts. Can anyone tell me why there is such a variety of "facts" on certain issues. Charlie says cast is only good for cowboy type loads regardless of how hard the lead is and I know he has been doing this for years and most everyone else says they can prove charlies facts different by their own loads, their own guns, and their own experiences. This is why it is hard for a newbie to get started when he has experiences like I had today and I cannot seem to get a consistent answer from books or others. And unfortunately I don't have the money to keep buying $20 powders till I find one that works. It is getting frustarting after only 40 rds. But otherwise I am enjoying the bang. Cory

"Old Charley" believes what he believes, and isn't going to let any facts sway his opinion.
I've pushed soft cast lead to 1675 avg without gas checks or leading. (before you ask, Lee 215gr SWC, recovered X-ray lab lead, with Alox/beeswax lube out of a SBH Hunter).
As I've stated before, I'm not leading up my S&W using almost the exact same load your using.
So Cory, where in your barrel are you seeing the lead? Cylinder mouth? Forcing cone? First couple of inches? At the muzzle end? From one end to the other? Is this a brand new revolver? (wondering about barrel roughness, here, and possiably timming). Loose flaky lead, or almost like it's welded in?
One thing I forgot, have you run your thumbnail around the case mouth/bullet joint to remove any "extra" lead from seating? (I get my buddies wife to preform this task )

[ 03-16-2003, 07:02: Message edited by: Tailgunner ]

Whole length of barrel. Almost like its welded in. Very very tough to remove. Gun I got from a gunshow. It looks new and was told it was a fairly new revolver although yes it is used. Bore is bright and shiny when cleaned. Funny thing is a friend of mine gave me close to 500 reloads a couple years back. 38 special and 357 in a variety of flavors. Except for 50 38 rds which were jacketed, the rest were all lead. Some of those 357 rds were damn hot. I threw the cases away after shooting. Out of 400-500 rds in last month from same revolver, I cleaned every day I got home. Never had any leading. None at all. I load up 20 rds of my first this am with reduced starting charge and I swear I have never seen a barrel so bad. It was terrible. It is something to do with my loads I am sure but unsure what. Like I said some of the reloads from my friend I can tell you from pressure sings, muzzle blast, and recoil were a hell of alot hotter than these and they never did anything to my barrel. And one last thing, I now know do not shoot someone elses reloads but I did and its done and now I have allo that 38/357 brass to use . Cory

The first error lies in using the Hornady lead bullets. For all prqactical purposes they hardly can be said to be lubricated. Try ordering 500 or 1K cast/lubed bullets from a commercial caster. If you can specify, get ALL grooves lubed in the bullets.

When loading these bullets, try using Soft Gas Checks under them. Here's a link explaining what they are:
<http://www.caversham16.freeserve.co.uk>

Target-level loads with Soft Gas Checks often will help remove leading as well as preventing it.

I suggest you raise this question on the cast bullet board.

With a .38, you do not need a hard bullet. You can shoot nearly pure lead. For .38 special velocities, 7 or 8 Brinell is all that is required. You do not need bullets any harder than air cooled wheel weights in any application of under 1700 fps or so. Many times, the leading is caused by a too hard bullet, not permitting the projectile to obdurate and fill the bore.

A low velocity pistol round does not need all that good of a lube. Even in a full load .44 mag, I do not get any leading. A coating of liquid Alox is sufficient. I load for 14 different cartridges in pistol, revolver, and rifle calibers, and get absolutely no leading with the proper bullet size, hardness, and lube.

I would suggest the main culprit in your case are bullets that are under bore size. Slug your bore. They should be from .001 to .002 over bore diameter. Drop one through each cylinder throat. There should be slight resistance as they pass through. This will let you know if they need any reaming. Regardless of what company you get bullets from, they are trying to be all things to all people, and even with modern manufacturing proceedures, there are still variations in bore sizes. If you shoot older guns, this is a real consideration. LOTS of variation.

You may wish to contact the companies and ask them what the diameter of the bullets are. Don't accept what the nominal size marked on the box is. Have some one actually mike one. You are better off with too big, than too small.

I'll go mic one now. I never thought of that. cory

The basic rules are match the hardness to the pressure level, use a good lube, and hopefully match your cylinder throat diameter and barrel diameter to the bullet diameter. If you're lucky, your throat is about .001 larger than your barrel. In that case pick a sized bullet that's about equal to your throat or maybe .001 bigger. Worst case combo is tight throat and loose barrel -- bullets get squeezed down, then have to expand back up. Not a good combo.

Bullets nned to expand or obturate to fill the grooves. When smacking them with 30K+ psi, they need to be hard. Linotype or hard cast wheelweights quench hardened. If you hit a soft bullet with that much pressure, bad things happen such as leading. All the lube will be conumed early in barrel and leading will be present near the muzzle. The reverse can also happen, loading a too hard bullet but shooting it at target velocites/low pressure. The bases never obturate and again you get leading, this time near the throat.

My best advice with the Hornady's is shoot them around 900-1000 fps. Use a mid burning powder. reserve high velocity loads for slow powders.

Martindog