I recently came by a nice old Model 94 in .25-35. As you might expect, ammunition and components are a bit scarce, particularly appropriate bullets for something like deer.

We've always been warned not to use pointed bullets in tubular magazine due to the possibility of the sharp nose of one round setting off the primer of the round in front of it which it rests against in the magazine.

Hornady has addressed this in some calibers with their Leverevolution plastic-tipped bullets. Has anyone ever tried using Nosler Ballistic Tips in a tubular magazine? I can see the tips getting just a bit flattened, but I can't see the polycarbonate tip being hard enough to dent the primer it rests against.

What say ye, oh learned gentlemen of wisdom?

Having spent about 30 years in the nuclear world, there is something out there called PRA. It is short for "Probabilistic Risk Assessment". In short, any potential accident is evaluated for possible occurrence based on an identified and finite set of factors, and the final result is some sort of a number, i.e., <1E-4, etc.

Now, having said all that, I would only ask this: is the potential benefit of shooting a Nosler BT in a lever gun worth the potential of one "oops"?

Or, to say it another way: if the Nosler BT were soft enough to be shot in tubular magazines, would there have ever been a market for the Nosler Leverevolution bullets?

In short, I don't know either answer; I do, however, know what my decision would be.

Any "ballistic Tip" that you can scratch with your finger nail will not set off a rifle primer. with your "little caliber" rifle the chances are even less.
I've used them in a couple of lever rifles with no problems. None of the rifles were recoil monsters like a .45-70.

Why not use it as a two shooter? One in the chamber and one in the tube?

I would do it, but I am not telling you to. For the record.

I know full well the nature of the fear of doing so, and it is entirely reasonable.

But like dpcd, I'd do it but wouldn't advise anyone else to follow my example.

I don't know of any empirical evidence that would support the theory, and I believe that almost no spitzer, other than FMJs, that would have the rigidity/hardness necessary to detonate the next round, given the modest recoil of the most common lever action cartridges.

So I'd like to pose a question: does anyone know of a single example in which any kind of spitzer, loaded in a tubular magazine of a rifle of any caliber, detonated the following round?

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." — Yogi Berra

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
Any "ballistic Tip" that you can scratch with your finger nail will not set off a rifle primer. with your "little caliber" rifle the chances are even less.
I've used them in a couple of lever rifles with no problems. None of the rifles were recoil monsters like a .45-70.

I can scratch the exposed lead of just about any jacketed bullet with my fingernail. Somehow, this doesn't seem like the definitive test.

Pull the tips out with pliers

flat point hollow point

quote:

Originally posted by JLarsson:

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
Any "ballistic Tip" that you can scratch with your finger nail will not set off a rifle primer. with your "little caliber" rifle the chances are even less.
I've used them in a couple of lever rifles with no problems. None of the rifles were recoil monsters like a .45-70.

I can scratch the exposed lead of just about any jacketed bullet with my fingernail. Somehow, this doesn't seem like the definitive test.

I agree that you can scratch the lead tip of a spitzer with your fingernail, which suggests to me that it is soft enough to deform from recoil against the primer of the following round before detonating it, in a tubular magazine.

I agree entirely with JLarsson, because (at least to my knowledge) this detonation stuff is a theory, so far unsupported by empirical data.

I'm very leery of totally reasonable and totally believable theories that lack any/definitive/dispositive empirical support.

Having said that, I fully understand the power of the question: "Why gamble?"

And having said THAT, I ask: "Why gamble that 'Anthropogenic Global Warming' won't destroy the world?"

Disclaimer: I myself would not be reluctant to use spitzers (other than FMJ) in tubular mags of .30-30, .32 Win, .35 Rem rifles, I am NOT encouraging others to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by B. L. O'Connor:
So I'd like to pose a question: does anyone know of a single example in which any kind of spitzer, loaded in a tubular magazine of a rifle of any caliber, detonated the following round?

I have seen at least one photograph in a magazine of a blown magazine tube purportedly caused by an in-line ignition. But I would have to agree that such phenomena would have to be very rare, even with something like a sharp-tipped FMJ. If I recall the rifle was some rather heavy caliber which would (1) generate much more recoil energy than a .25-35 and (2) would use cartridges which are much heavier and therefore have much more inertia.

If you'll stop and think about it, soft lead wouldn't make a very good firing pin, now would it? And thinking further, I'd challenge anyone to set off a primer using the tip of a Ballistic Tip bullet as the striker surface. (At least polycarbonate wouldn't be your first choice of material to tip a firing pin with!)

If you can't purposefully design a mechanism which will set off a primer using a piece of polycarbonate as the only thing to touch the primer, then it is hard to imagine setting off a cartridge which is held rearward only by the modest tension of a magazine spring.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
I've used them in a couple of lever rifles with no problems. None of the rifles were recoil monsters like a .45-70.

I suspected that someone had used Ballistic tips in tubular magazines and lived to tell the tale. I'm sure that many others have, also.

I'll admit that I would be a bit more dubious about using something like a .375/260 grain B Tip in a .38/55 or .375 Winchester, but a 100 grainer in a .25-35 would seem rather low risk.

I have a Model 14 .25 Remington pump in which I use Sierra 90 gr Hollow Points, but with that rifle there is no issue since it was made with a cleaver helical rib pressed into its magazine which assures that the bullet's point does not rest against the primer in front.

The mention of the Model 14's magazine tube brings to mind another question. It is impossible to see inside a conventional straight-walled magazine in order to know just how each cartridge rests against the one in front of it. But it is reasonable to assume that the .25-35's significantly tapered case, taken together with the larger rim at the rear of the case, causes the cartridge to sit somewhat crooked in the magazine tube. I doubt that the nose of one cartridge is actually bearing against the primer of the next, but rather bears against the head somewhere between the primer and the outer edge of the rim. What would be the group's opinion on this matter?

One of 'engineering changes' made in 1972 on the marlin 336 action to accommodate the 45/70 round was the addition of a round bulge on the end of the mag tube where it slides in the action. This was done because the "real" 1895 was a bigger, longer action. The 336 was originally a 30-30 sized action. The new '1895' in 45/70 actually has the nose of the 45/70 moving into this bulge to feed onto the carrier. This is the point where pointed bullets or bullets with a sharp hollow point and small nose, ride across the back of the case of the round in front of them in the magazine. My guess is.... here, under recoil and racking the next round, would be the time Murphy would act!
I love lever guns, but if I need something that shoots 200 yards plus and does not drop like a rock. I get a bolt action, not try some magic to make them do something they can't.

quote:

I love lever guns, but if I need something that shoots 200 yards plus and does not drop like a rock. I get a bolt action, not try some magic to make them do something they can't.

Same with a lot of other rifles and calibers instead of loading hot if I need more speed or power I just buy a bigger and or faster one.

Please don't misunderstand: My purpose is not more power, speed, or better trajectory; it is to use components which are currently and readily available.

FWIW and this is from memory, which ain't what it used to be, I read a magazine article years ago with pics where they imitated a in line magazine firing of a round(s). The results were less than impressive and the general conclusion was that such an event might wreck the magazine tube, possibly damage the fore end but would probably not do any real damage to the shooter or his hand. OTOH I wouldn't really want to be the one holding the fore end during a "live fire" experiment.

Personally while I think the danger is extremely minimal, I'd just load 2, one up and one in the mag, and be done with it.

As Ted said pull the tip. Nothing to remove it and I so no difference in accuracy. After all it isn't a BR rifle.

The solution is in the Remington 141; they have a spiral magazine tube which prevents bullet/primer contact. I also once loaded some 219 Zippers, from which I filed the lead tips to a somewhat flat tip, even with the jacket. No problems noted.
I do know personally of one case of magazine detonation; in a 44 Mag. One round went off in the mag tube, burst the tube and the forearm, and sent the cartridge case into my friend's mouth, busting out a couple of teeth in the process. High primer? Certainly not pointed bullets.

i doubt that a 23/35 would have enuf recoil to cause a problem,but why not load up a dummy round with a live primer as the last round in the tube and run it through a couple of magazines full & see what happens

Read my blurbs on the levergun link, then talk to a lever gunsmith and listen to THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS. Then think WHY did those levergun makers that used a twisty tube do that when using a straight tube is much cheaper.

This argument/question has been going on for at least 50 years and probably a lot longer without any resolution.

I wouldn't recommend a Baltip use, even obliquely, except as a two shooter. I've been shooting leverguns that way for that long and I have 4 leverguns in various cals sitting in my gun rack right now.

I made a follower with a hollow center to capture a pointed bullet and center it in the tube. When I feel hairy-legged and want to carry around a heavy, unbalanced gun, I load the mag full...a pointy bullet first followed by 3-4 FN's then a pointy racked into the chamber, then another FN.

Depending on which bullet I use and the loaded length, I can get a total of 7 rounds in mag and chamber in my Marlin 336, 356 Win.

All that does is add weight and continuously change the balance point as you fire off each round. If you need more than 3 rounds to get the job done, you should practice more.

I was admonished with my first Win 94 NOT to use pointed bullets back those many years ago...by any number of lever gunners...

One of my mentors jumped on me when I asked
him about using a soft lead nosed pointed bullet way back then..."Don't be stupid" was his reply..."Use your own brain and think about it"..."People are full of shit and are sheep". His words.

I'm NOT stupid, but I AM an experimenter. I've blown up M98's on purpose but I WON'T possibly destroy a nice levergun by experimenting with a full mag of pointy bullets just to see if it will happen.

It's YOUR gun, YOUR life...Think about it...why listen to a bunch of people you don't know whose knowledge of gunsmithing or mechanical/engineering/metallurgy is unknown/possibly hearsay or just conjecture, on some forum, for information relating to a possibly dangerous situation? But it happens all the time.

Talk to a lever gunsmith...there are a few who ventilate the mag tube so any possible tube cartridge discharge, from WHATEVER reason, will cause the least amount of damage to shooter and gun.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Pull the tips out with pliers

flat point hollow point

Well I liked Ted's response and myself being a redneck tinkerer I also thought that sanding or filing the tips flat would work well too.

I found 143ea..257 cal. 75 gr. fp. Speers? that you can have for $17.00 plus postage. roger

Bartsche: Thanks for the offer. I have some of those 75 gr Speers which I've been using in a .25-20 and .256 Win. I was really hoping to find some Hornady 117 RN's for this rifle. In the meantime I might do some single- or two-shots with some 100 gr BTips.

If I should run across a clear plastic tube that is the same diameter inside as the Win 94 magazine it would be interesting to see just how the cartridges stack inside it under spring pressure. As I mentioned earlier, it is possible that they will refuse to stack point-to-primer, but will instead be somewhat crooked inside the tube. Just try standing up a .25-35 cartridge loaded with a pointy bullet on your kitchen table and see how much success you have in stacking five more on top of it.

Years back Elmer Keith showed a tubular magazine
that blew from pointed bullets. The photo
caption "Yes it can happen".