New guy with AR15 question.

20 March 2010, 02:56

Hello all! I'm pretty new to reloading and have a few questions that I hope someone can help me with.
I have been reloading for ar's for a few years now but until recently haven't had this problem.
I have been trying to find an accurate load for a newer 16" M4gery and am striking out so far. I bought some Hornady bulk .55 gr fmjbt's and am loading with 24 gr of H335. This has usually been a good load with other ar's but am having issues getting the rifle to group below 3" @ 100 yards. In fact, every round I have fired through it (federal, wolf, winchester )stays around 3"??
I have tried setting O.A.L from 2.200 to 2.600 and everything in between with no luck.
Any ideas. You help would be greatly appreciated.

20 March 2010, 03:27

ted thorn

Welcome to AR but I have bad news.....
I am not a black rifle guy but if everything is 3" things are bad. Good luck.

20 March 2010, 04:06

CCWIOWA

Well, I have actually been getting .35-.48" strings of three then a flier then another .38-.39" or so.. So actually it's fliers that are making the groups so bad. Very frustrating. I should have said that to begin with, but I usually have strings of 10 rounds and get 2-3 fliers every 2-3 rounds? Doesn't happen with the other rifles though....?

20 March 2010, 05:43

Not_Infringed

Are you able to get better groups with other ammo?

Are you using front and rear sandbags on a bench? Barrel nut tight? Maybe its time to get a reduced trigger pull kit and polish the sears.

A buddy of mine bought some .223 69gr BTHP Hornady's and it seems their quality is somewhat lacking. You might want to try Sierra or Nosler bullets.

I found that when I switched to Varget (from H322) that my group sizes did get smaller.

20 March 2010, 06:41

CCWIOWA

I have tried .69 gr match kings and they group about the same. Some @ .48-50" then a flier.
My 1/7" twist 16" AR gets groups that touch with that same round.

Barrel nut is tight, sandbags on both.
But......

I was looking at the muzzle and noticed there is no perceivable crown?
Maybe it's crown-less, and this is causing the problem?
Is crown-less a word? LOL.

20 March 2010, 07:04

homebrewer

If you get good groups consistently then that oddball, I'm going to guess you're jumping on the trigger too soon for that bad shot. I have the same problem. I get revved-up and let it fly before I'm really ready. I play golf and I sometimes have the same problem on an approach shot or a three-foot putt. It's called the yips. Your mind tells you you are this close-- just this close. So go ahead and fire or putt, or whatever. So you do and as soon as you shoot or putt, you know it's bad. This is when the practiced slow down, asses, take a breath and slowly go forward. I'd say just practice mental control and you should put that last one right in there...

20 March 2010, 07:18

CCWIOWA

Yips!! That's great! Actually I don't think that is the case because I'm trading rifles during the shoot and getting good groups with one and not the other.... Besides if you saw how little of my body is actually touching the rifle while I shoot you would laugh.
Not sure what it could be..

20 March 2010, 21:30

BECoole

What kind of barrel is it?

Try a known good load like 52gr Sierra Matchkings and 26.5gr of W748 or 27gr Varget. Shoot a 10 shot group. Whatever group you get is pretty much how well the rifle shoots. If you want it to shoot better, try another barrel or get a match barrel.

A match barrel kind of defeats the purpose of a M4gery, but that's where you are headed - getting match accuracy out of a SHTF carbine.

20 March 2010, 22:12

homebrewer

BE says,

quote:
A match barrel kind of defeats the purpose of an M4gery, but that's where you are headed-- getting match accuracy out of a SHTF carbine.

I have a 16-inch, stainless, 1:8 (I think), DPMS heavy barrel on an AR. I can perforate one-liter soda bottles at 300 yards with it all day long using garden-variety 55-grain, FMJ milsurp bullets. That's one minute-of-angle. Not too bad for a guy who's blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, so a 16-inch barrel should do pretty well...

20 March 2010, 22:31

CCWIOWA

Well...All my other 16" M4's have an 11 degree crown. This one has no crown at all so I just wonder if that has anything to do with it? I'm going to pull the hider off today and see if I can at least face the muzzle and lap it. I was looking at it and decided there is junk embedded all around the muzzle (probably from installation) that can't be removed with solvent and Q-tips.
As for Win 748..I have been using that for some time as well and love it! Especially for the 1/7" barrel.
As far an accurate 16" barrel? I've never not had one, but then all are and have been 11 degree target crowns..so go figure. BTW-Where is the degree symbol on the keypad?

21 March 2010, 03:46

Hot Core

quote:
Originally posted by BECoole:
Try a known good load like 52gr Sierra Matchkings and 26.5gr of W748 or 27gr Varget. ....

Looks like befoole is totally WRONG as usual. There is no such thing as a "Universally Accurate Load" except in the minds of Twilight Zone fools. If there was, we would all be using the same Load. What an idiot!
-----

Your problem could be as simple as your Cases not being Fully Prepped and Weight Sorted.

It could be the Case Mouth needs "Polishing" with some 0000SteelWool wrapped around an old 22cal Bore Brush, after Champfering. Occasionally small Burrs remain which can "nick" the Bullet Base as it is being inserted into the Case. The majority of Bullet Steering is done from the Base, so any damage there can result in a Flier.

Try Weight Sorting a few Bullets until you get 5 just alike. Then use them in Fully Prepped, Weight Sorted and Polished Case Mouth Cases.

If you have not developed the Load using the never-improved-upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method, then you many not be on one of the Harmonic Nodes. But you are apparently pretty close to one.

Use MatchGrade Bullets to Benchmark the rifle instead of the FMJs. Once you have a known good Load for your rifle, then switch to the FMJs and re-develop around the same general area.

I also find WW-748 to be pretty accurate in my 223Rem. But a lot of Powders work great in the 223Rem.

Best of luck to you.

21 March 2010, 06:54

homebrewer

quote:
BTW-Where is the degree symbol on the keypad?

You have to access your Character Map. I have done it once or twice in the last 25 years. Can't remember how to do it right now. You execute certain two-key commands, and you can get all sorts of funky and fun symbols. It's there. Maybe someone who knows his Windows better than me can tell us all...

21 March 2010, 07:23

daniel77

Hey Brew,
Does you yip your trigger prematurely in other areas as well?

21 March 2010, 07:29

homebrewer

quote:
Originally posted by daniel77:

Hey Brew,

Does you yip your trigger prematurely in other areas as well?

May I ask you the same?

21 March 2010, 11:34

Not_Infringed

quote:
BTW-Where is the degree symbol on the keypad?

ALT + 0186
or (if you want to be lazy like me, just copy and paste from this webpage)
http://www.wackycodes.com/

22 March 2010, 02:12

243winxb

The 55fmj is not the best bullet for accuracy. If they shot well for you before, were the bullets the same lot number? The 69 gr match kings should shoot better than the 55fmjs. You are matching the twist to the bullet length/weight?. Looks like the crown or the barrel. But first double check scope and mounts, is everything tight?

22 March 2010, 02:41

Peter

Why not contact DPMS? Perhaps they will replace the barrel for you.
Peter.

23 March 2010, 20:08

BECoole

quote:
Originally posted by homebrewer:
BE says,
quote:
A match barrel kind of defeats the purpose of an M4gery, but that's where you are headed-- getting match accuracy out of a SHTF carbine.

I have a 16-inch, stainless, 1:8 (I think), DPMS heavy barrel on an AR. I can perforate one-liter soda bottles at 300 yards with it all day long using garden-variety 55-grain, FMJ milsurp bullets. That's one minute-of-angle. Not too bad for a guy who's blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, so a 16-inch barrel should do pretty well...

Didn't say a 16" CAN'T shoot well. You can make one out of the finest steel with the utmost care just like you can a longer barrel and it will shoot just as great.

But a chrome-lined M4 barrel was not made with sub-minute accuracy as a design objective. It was made to be durable and shoot under 5 MOA for 10 shots. (Gov't standard is roughly 10 shots in 5 MOA. I believe it's actually expressed in mean radius, but a 5" gun will usually qualify. I'm sure someone knows the specifics, but as you can see a 3" gun is well within spec.) If it shoots good, well, that's Dandy! But I'd never buy one if accuracy was my main goal.

23 March 2010, 20:19

BECoole

quote:
Originally posted by Hot Core:
quote:
Originally posted by BECoole:
Try a known good load like 52gr Sierra Matchkings and 26.5gr of W748 or 27gr Varget. ....
Looks like befoole is totally WRONG as usual. There is no such thing as a "Universally Accurate Load" except in the minds of Twilight Zone fools. If there was, we would all be using the same Load. What an idiot!
-----

Your problem could be as simple as your Cases not being Fully Prepped and Weight Sorted.

It could be the Case Mouth needs "Polishing" with some 0000SteelWool wrapped around an old 22cal Bore Brush, after Champfering. Occasionally small Burrs remain which can "nick" the Bullet Base as it is being inserted into the Case. The majority of Bullet Steering is done from the Base, so any damage there can result in a Flier.

Try Weight Sorting a few Bullets until you get 5 just alike. Then use them in Fully Prepped, Weight Sorted and Polished Case Mouth Cases.

If you have not developed the Load using the never-improved-upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method, then you many not be on one of the Harmonic Nodes. But you are apparently pretty close to one.

Use MatchGrade Bullets to Benchmark the rifle instead of the FMJs. Once you have a known good Load for your rifle, then switch to the FMJs and re-develop around the same general area.

I also find WW-748 to be pretty accurate in my 223Rem. But a lot of Powders work great in the 223Rem.

Best of luck to you.

Oh, please! You better run and tell Federal and Black Hills that they are wasting their time offering Match ammunition. After all, that shit can't shoot good in more than one rifle!

Prepped and weight sorted!!??

Do you really think any commercial ammunition company does that? Of course you are right, you can't shoot under MOA with commercial ammo, right?

I'll tell you what, I buy nasty old mil surplus once fired brass and shoot under MOA with it. No sorting, no trimming, no nothing. Standard primers and dumped charges.

Weighing cases will help you at 600+, but unless you have a benchrest-quality rifle you are just wasting your time for 300 yard and under target shooting.

Boys, you better think long and hard before you go 'round chasing your tail with advice from Hot Boor.

Edited to add:

OMG! I just saw the part about weighing bullets! HC, do you really weigh Matchkings for 100 yard shooting or do you just write that to f@ck with the new guys?

04 April 2010, 04:39

Kenati

quote:
Originally posted by CCWIOWA:
This one has no crown at all so I just wonder if that has anything to do with it? I'm going to pull the hider off today and see if I can at least face the muzzle and lap it. I was looking at it and decided there is junk embedded all around the muzzle (probably from installation) that can't be removed with solvent and Q-tips.

I think you're on to something here.

But I also think the suggestion to check your mounts/rings is a good one. I assume it is a picatinny rail, so could you swap out scopes and makes sure that is not the problem. I know its rare, but optics are not foolproof. (Not saying you're a fool, of course. ha!)

Or maybe you've already figured all this out. What's the verdict? Got any "before" pictures of the crown?

04 April 2010, 08:32

N E 450 No2

CCWIOWA

Many years ago a couple of Bench Rest Match shooters die a test of 2 full size AR 15's, one and original 1 in 12, the other the new 1 in 7 twist barrel.

They put 12 power scoes on both rifles.

Then they tested a dozen or so factory 55 grain FMJ ball ammo, through both guns, at 100 yards.

None of the factory loads shot under 2", none shot over 3".

The average was 2.5 to 2.75 inches.

The factory soft point load they fored shot much better.

Usually FMJ bullets will not be that accurate.

I would recommend that you try some different factory ammo.

I have seen several different AR's shoot Federal 55 gr Ballistic Tip and Winchester factory 55 gr loads with the Ballistic Silvertip bullets very well.

Also that load that BE gave you should shoot pretty good as well.

Also check and see if hour barrel is tight, the gas tube and gas block is tight, and if the gas key on the bolt is tight.

Remember those bench rest shooters with 12 power scoes got only 2.5 to just under 3" groups with their factory Colt rifles.

04 April 2010, 10:24

DuggaBoye

quote:
Originally posted by CCWIOWA:
Well, I have actually been getting .35-.48" strings of three then a flier then another .38-.39" or so.. So actually it's fliers that are making the groups so bad. Very frustrating. I should have said that to begin with, but I usually have strings of 10 rounds and get 2-3 fliers every 2-3 rounds? Doesn't happen with the other rifles though....?

As 450 NE No2 said--
"Also check and see if hour barrel is tight, the gas tube and gas block is tight, and if the gas key on the bolt is tight."

and as you said--
"Well, I have actually been getting .35-.48" strings of three then a flier then another .38-.39"

out of a "16" M4gery "

LIFE AIN"T BAD

Fliers occur for many "human" reasons-
"cheeking" the weapon
"fingering" the weapon"
not having consistent ocular alignment with the axis of the/optics/sighting device-

Also, remember this is not a Wilson Super Sniper or a Les Baer Thunder Ranch-- guaranteed to 1/2 moa groups--

and as I was told years ago ,
THIS AIN"T NO BENCH RIFLE

so, check the gun over as suggested,

but after having personally fired numerous variants of both heavy barreled and non-heavy barreled AR platforms--
it may not be a 1/2 moa tool you hope for, without mucho tweaking.