i am a meet hunter.
i use 100gr bt's in a 25/06, deer size form 90# up too 140# being about the largest they were shot any where from 35 yrs out to 200 yds. NEVER had a falure.
Loaded 130bt for my 270 for a couple years shot 6 deer with this load these bullets tore the hell out the deer.
One that was hit a little high on the sholder was in two pieces, just a little skin was all thats held it togeather.
The first deer i shot with the 270 was a sholder shot, lost
the sholder and the neck, with 100 to 120# deer thats a lot of meat.
here i go thinkin again , i think that if you make a bad hit "gut shot"
no matter what bullet your using you better be a dam good tracker or you wont recover you game.
I saw a deer hit in the hind with a 130bt the guy had to chase it down. it was a small deer about 75#. He told me later after he butchered it he carried what was left home in a shoe box.

It just makes me laugh every time I hear someone talk about how NBTs just blow apart every time. Apparently they don't have much experience w/ them at all.



Last night on Tuesday Night Pursuits a Hunter took a large Bull Moose at 260 yards w/ a 180 NBT fired from a 300 Win Mag. The Moose dropped at the shot. Talk about excellent performance. Chaulk another Big Game animal up to the "Premium" NBT hunting bullets.



They are truly a good designed bullet. I have taken dozens of Big Game animals w/ them and haven't noted one "Failure" yet. I cant say that about all of these "Hard to Destruct" bullets that are out, I have witnessed several failures w/ them.



We all have our preference in hunting bullets, rifles, camo, optics, etc. I just simply rely on what has worked for me in the past and will keep on working in the future.



Good Luck and God Bless!



Reloader

I agree with you. I've seen quite a few posts about the NBT failures (failed to have an exit wound), however they state that the animal was dead. Are there degrees of dead?

While I have had good luck with Nosler BT's in the past, I have also seen them come apart in flight and never make it to a 100 yard target due to excessive velocity. That's never happened to me with a Barnes X or a Swift Scirroco, regardless of velocity.

Sure, my main hunting buddy used to laugh at those stories, too. He's been using 165-gr. BallTips in his -06 for years to great effect on deer.



Well, last week, he lost not only a trophy-class Axis buck, but the trophy fee, as well. He'll probably be singing a different tune, now.



He made what he thought was a solid shot on the deer, which appeared hit and ran off. There was a very generous amount of blood at the site where impact occurred. But, it shortly diminished to nothing. The vegetation was very thick and the animal was never found.



We don't know for sure, since no post mortem was possible, but I imagine he hit the buck on the shoulder and the BallTip exploded and scooped out a nice-sized flesh wound, which provided the initial blood deposit. Unfortunately, it didn't provide an extended trail. So, one lost animal and one trophy fee paid with nothing to show for it; all in the name of a bullet whose main feature is that it looks "cool."



The week before, I almost lost an Axis doe that I shot with a 130-gr. Hornady SST from a .270: No pass-through or blood (not a drop), and she ran of into the scrub. By sheer luck we just happened to stumble upon her. Thank goodness.



Note that both episodes involved standard cartridges, not magnums, so velocity was not an issue. These bullets just stank.



Non-bonded polymer-tip bullets = Caveat Emptor.



RSY

Funny how trends and fads come and go. Jack O'Conner would have been elated at ballistic tip perfrmance. Lightning fast kills...drops in tracks... etc. At the time guys were shooting big game with the Swift and giving glowing results. Fourty years before most were hurling big chunks of soft lead or a long slow Kraig bullets. Bullets passed through and the game seem to die pretty well. Now we want all things at once. We want the bullet to pass through a bull elephant yet scramble tissue like a frangible bullet from a 220 Swift. Well there are trade offs. You can't have both. There is only so much energy in the bullet to do so much work. If you want pass throughs don't expect a big wound channel. If you want to make soup out of the vitals you probably won't get a pass through. If you want blood leaking from two holes use a high sectinal density bullet, ie 7mm 175gr, or big heavy slow moving stuff, 400gr 45-70. Don't expect a light fast mover to give pass throughs but, the devistation inside may be quite impresisve. Like so many thing in life moderation seems to be the key. If the bullet gets into the vitals and destroys important organs you get your animal. A pass through, in itself, is no indicatin that you have good bullet performance.

I have killed big game with all kinds of calibers and weapons. .243 factory stuff up to 500 gr pure lead paper patch, 50 cal flintlock, bow with broadheads, and a whole bunch of stuff in between. They all work. They all work a little differently. Some shoot farther. Some scramble more tissue. Mostly if you shoot well you get to take home the meat. And that is the MOST improtant thing, shot placement. Bullet construction and caliber are a tiny consiteration that pales in comparison to shooting well. So if you have confidence in your ballistics tips, have at it. Shoot straight and bring home the bacon.

I am a big fan of the NBTs out of my 270 for deer, but I tried the 180 NBTs out of my 300WM. I hit an elk at 350 yards and it BARELY clipped the back of the shoulder blade. BULLET DESTRUCTION! Penetratiuon through the animal (along the bullets initial path) was 4 or 5 inches, but the explosion took out a 2 foot radius along the side of the body and completely wiped out the front quarter. Luckily a few pieces hit the lung. We had to chase that cow elk for quite a ways and stick her a couple more times when we got up to her before she died. I wasn't impressed to say the least.

Reloader: Thanks for your post. As all free-enterprise-loving good Americans agree, the market is the ultimate test of a product. Ballistic Tips sell exceedingly well and bring a premium over other types of bullets (just check eBay for the composite opinion of the market on this subject).

While they are rather frangible (fast expanding), many people forget that the solid copper base design provides penetration all out of proportion to their fast expansion. And in my forty years of hunting, I've seen far more game lost due to under-expanding bullets rather than over-expansion.

As to the horror stories of "exploding on contact" and blowing a big, shallow chunk out of a deer's shoulder, I have actually experienced this problem. Ironically, it was with a Nosler Partition! I did recover the deer, after a lucky shot caught him in the neck as he hightailed it away, but the evidence of "bullet failure" was incontravertable. Nevermind that the particularly adverse angle and the likelihood that the bullet may have been slightly deflected and thus impacted at an unusual attitude had anything to do with blowing a shallow chunk of meat out of the deer.

My point is that a single incident proves nothing about a bullet. I didn't stop using Partitions due to one bad outcome (bad outcome being relative since the deer's antlers now adorn my wall).

I wouldn't recommend Ballistic Tips for elk (except in .338 and .375 in which they are designed for heavy game), but for anything the size of carabou on down, they will hold their own with any bullet made.

Of course you do have to watch out for Ballistic Tips vaporizing in thin air and never making it to the target.

Stonecreek makes an excellent point. The .338 BTs are made with a thicker jacket and can be used for such. I just shared my one experience on elk. Hey, here's some controversy: MANY, MANY guys that have used them say the HEAVIER (200 and 220) grain matchkings out of 30 caliber rifles outperform NBTs on elk, and at least with those heavy bullet weights, I have never heard of them blowing up on contact or not penetrating clear through without a decent sized hole (when they do exit). Yes, I am a big fan of the partitions and the accubonds, but I hold no reservation in using the HEAVY matchkings on elk. One experience with the NBTs isn't proof they don't work, I just may not use them again. Nothing wrong with fragmentation and a little meat loss if it means quick humane kills.

I have said it in the past and I will say it again.. Bullet placement is the key to success.. Use what you like and what works best for you!!!

Just for fun here is a pic of a recently killed Ghog @ 300yds... What bullet was used?? I will tell it was a 243 that delivered it!!

Kingfisher: Are you sure about those Nosler Ballistic Tips disintegrating in flight?
I have shot them in all manner of Rifles including my 240 Weatherby Magnum, 220 Swift, 6mm Ackley Improved, 270 Winchester, 280 Remington, 7mm Magnum and on and on. Never once have I had a Nosler Ballistic Tip not reach the target!
Nor have I ever heard of a Nosler Ballistic Tip in any caliber out of any of my myriad of friends and Hunting partners having disintegration problems out of their Rifles!
The Big Game I have shot and seen shot with Nosler Ballistic Tips all succumbed readily. All except one. That one was a large Mule Deer my friend Larry shot in Wyoming with a 130 gr. Ballistic Tip back in about 1984! One of the shots on that Mulie did explode on the shoulder surface as opposed to penetrating. It knocked said Deer down and it required another shot. I later heard an officer of the Nosler Company (in person) before an audience, admit that the Nosler 270 - 130 gr. Ballistic Tips were in fact to frangible for Big Game Hunting during that short time span. And the factory folks had corrected that bullets design problem.
I would sure like to hear what speeds you shot what Nosler Ballistic Tip to get them to disintegrate on contact with the atmospere!
I killed three head of Big Game last fall (all one shot kills!) with my Remington 700 Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester using (you guessed it!) the Nosler 130 gr. Ballistic Tip! This splendid bullet performed perfectly and its flight characteristics (B.C.) are superb! Flat shooting, lethal, supremely accurate and impervious to magazine damaged points - a very good bullet in my experience. There may be better bullets for Big Game lethality wise - but I have never seen a bullet type or brand that is more consistently easily made to be VERY accurate! In my experience there just isn't one!
Very accurate, very lethal and very flat shooting! Sounds like a good choice to me!
Having said that let me add my last Elk and last Bear were killed with the splendid Nosler 160 gr. Partitions from my 7mm Remington Magnum.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Reloader,



What most hunters fail to realize is that you must not only match the bullet to the game, but more importantly, match the bullet for your shot.



Double or single lung shots are deadly on thin skinned game, for that shot a fast opening cup and core bullet like NBT's are ideal. Except for ribs, a broadside, or mild quartering shot, intersects no heavy bone.



With your BT's you get fast instant kills. No mystery there. Cup and core bullets have worked well for years and will continue to do so, as long a heavy bone is not encountered.



The second most popular and effective shot on game animals is the so called "shoulder shot". Also taken from broadside, as well as quartering from mild to extreme angles, it is as devestating as the lung shot, however, proper execution requires a stouter bullet. This is where the "premium controlled expansion" bullets shine. Breaking bone, and penetrating.



They can be miserable failures when used on double lung shots, just like the cup and core bullets can fail on shoulder shots.



This is not to say that cup and core will always fail on shoulder shots, or that all premiums will fail on double lung shots. Most will work in both circumstances, however, when used outside their element, "failures" are more common.





So when using cup and core bullets, a smart hunter aims for the lungs and avoids bone.



When using controlled expansion bullets, you aim to break bone, and avoid hitting only soft tissue.



Both have their place, and require skill and technique to use properly.



No mystery here, or contoversy. Just the proper application of the right tool for the right job.



Regrds,



Bob

There is too much being made of all this. Use enough gun and shoot straight. Buying ammo for your 270, '06, 30-30, or whatever at
K-mart will work fine. Being good shot is all that is required. If you like to reload and fret about fancy bullets have fun but, it won't make much difference in the big schems on real game.

Nosler makes Ballistic tips for Varments and a another for big game. They are different. One is designed to "blow up". The Big game one looks like the old plain base with the polycarbonate tip. Good stuff. I have killed lots of game with them.

Stonecreek, Shadow, and others,

You make good points. We all have our own preferences and what works for me may not work for you. I guess that is why I love the USA!

I have seen several bullet failures on game shot w/ the "Hard to Destruct" bullets due to no expansion on a broadside, thru-the-ribs shot and have trailed many big game animals for hundreds of yards (even lost quite a few)due to their lack of tissue damage. Just like Shadow mentioned, there are applications to all designs of bullets. I have never seen the NBTs fail on game from 80-500 lbs. so, I intend on using them for quite some time. I have never witnessed one of these "bullets exploded on contact" incidents yet so, I will keep on shooting these fine hunting bullets.

It is funny how for years everyone had great success w/ thin copper jacketed Soft Point bullets and you didn't hear too many complaints about them then. The NBTs have a much better design than those old style bullets so, I don't understand why so many people doubt them.

Reloader

I also use Noslers, but for large deer size game prefer the Partition bullets. My main praise for the Balistic Tips is with their accuracy. I use them in several .224s, 6mm, 6.5mm and .308, and find them very accurate in all calibers.
I think everyone makes good game dropping bullets. The secret is in knowing which one to use. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Hey VarmintGuy, I'll try to keep this brief since our conversation is really not the same as the original post but what the hell.

The ones we had problems with were the 180 gr. 308's out of a couple of 30/378 Weatherby's, around 3600 fps. maybe a tad over. The target at 100 yards would look like you shot it with a 12 gauge. When we slowed them back down a tad, they quit coming apart.

Other than that, we had pretty good luck with them on deer.

Never forget that accuracy is only half the battle. My personal criteria for a bullet that I juggle are as follows:



1. It goes where I want it to go.



2. It does what I want it to when it gets there.



It's truly a subjective balancing act for each hunter, and nobody should rely solely on one or the other for a hunting projectile. To some degree, these reqirements are mutually exclusive, but every once in awhile we're lucky enough to find one that does both nicely. For me, I've found such a bullet in the Hornady InterLock for my main rifle. Of course, they're easy on the wallet, as well (which is sort of a distant third, unspoken criteria).



If Ballistic Tips do the same for you, more power to you.



RSY

Reloader,
lack of experience CAN be funny..


so, why don't we clear a thing or three up

1: what was the mv of the load that fella was using?
2: what is the <projected of course> actual IMPACT velocity
3: what was the retained weight of said BT?
4: or was there an exit wound?

so, yeah, if you load down the BT's speed, or use them at 260 yards (a shot i would not take on undistrubed game) after they've slowed enough NOT to DENOTATE....

"..copper base makes them penetrate better"

BS!

then the base jacket is all i can FIND left of the bullet, and it weighs LESS than 20% of the initial weight, you have had a bullet failure.

Degrees of dead? too funny... degrees of shotplacement, certainly...

besides, there's two great things about BT...

they don't make BTs for BIG BORES (.375 is now accubond only)

They aren't the only bullet on the shelf.

BT described as a PREMIUM bullet? that's the funnist thing i've read in weeks...

BT's are rarely greatly more expensive than speer or hornady.. you must mean the PARTITION is the premium bullet.

Oh well... some folks will learn through experience, some wont

jeffe

NBTs have worked for me out of my 6mm rem (90gr @3,200fps) and 6.5x55 (100gr @3,000fps)on game up to a good sized whitetail buck. At that size exits are not guaranteed but death is with a vitals shot at a good angle.

If I lived on the good ole USA with all your space and with your short seasons, I would allmost definately use a harder bullet. I live in a much smaller country, have long seasons, can afford to pass on non stationary poor angle shots (I'm not saying you can't but there must be more pressure) and use a lower velocity cartridge. For me the NBT is perfect.



Unrecovered deer are poor examples of poor bullet performance.

I have loaded the Ballistic Tip in a few calibers for quite a few years and they have killed a number of game, but I have seen the 130 .270 caliber (I have loaded more of them than the others) not exit a deer several times from my loads and recently, from the factory loads that have it. No, they have never "blown up on impact", but the deer would sometimes would run far enough with no blood spilled that they were tough to locate. And with the factory loads that a man and his son in our club hunt with, they have lost two--because of no blood trail they couldn't tell which way the animal ran. In all fairness, the hits may have not been good, but in my experience with a trail even marginal hits (not by me) have sometimes been followed up with success in finding the deer. The quickest kills I have ever had was when I just started reloading and were mostly from bullets in my 257 Weatherby with 100 grain Speer bullets (and similar combos) that didn't exit, but I have gone to tougher bullets over the years.

It would take some kind of amazing eyesight to SEE those bullets come apart in midflight.. Geeze, wheres my waders..



Ballistic tips are what they are. Use the right tool for the job. For the fellow who thinks that BT's arent supposed to be used on deer, there are essentially two kinds of BT's, varmint bullets and hunting. The Nosler brochure and manual distinguishes which are which.



As someone who has cut open several kinds of bullets to see what makes them work I can tell you that if it were not for the explosive nature of their tip they would be some of the toughest lead core bullets going.



Ive got two recovered 8mm 180 grain BTs that were fired into THE GROUND. Dirt, rocks sticks. They tore up a 2" deep channel for 18" into a slight incline. Both of them have perfect mushrooms twice their original diameter and their retained weight is 110 grns and 115. Not too bad for bullets known to fly apart in mid air. "rolleyes"



Still, they do have an explosive tip and should be used with that in mind. I think the big 35 cal 9.3 and 375 BT's would be awsome to use. Anyone read the article about Barsness taking Kudu with the 375 gn BT? In that measure they can roll with the best of bullets, but you start using 150 gn 30 cal BT for shoulder shots on Elk at magnum velocities and well, as Forrest puts it, stupid is as stupid does.. And when it dont work so good, then the bullets become the culprit.



Just like the bad rap the 220 swift got because a school of morons hailed it as a "wonder round" for deer. So some believed the BS and the dominoes fell. Not the equipments fault that the user needs to apply sensible judgment.

was talking to an old gunnie this evening.. who reminds me of something he told me when i was a young punk and he wasn't quite so old a gunnie...

"you know, jeff, there's some people out there that think how well their RIFLE shoots has something to do how well they hunt"

after that, there was some jawing about "sure, a BT might shoot better in a 7 or 300 mag, on paper.... and if you put that gun in a return to battery vise, it would even shoot better.... but neither are field choices"...

at least for me

jeffe

Jeffosso,

You say "lack of experience"

Are you speaking for yourself?

I can asure you I have plenty and I have well over 100 big game animals under my belt to back it up.

Maybe you should get in the field alittle more often to gain some yourself.

You seem like a pretty hard-headed fella.

Good Luck!

Reloader

I shot 2 deer with Win. Ballisic Silver Tips 165gr 30/06 last season. I have been told that they are the same bullet as the Nosler BT except for the coating. To make a long story short, BT's and BST's are NOT allowed in our deer camp anymore. If a bullet cannot produce a blood trail, even a small one (on snow)with 3 holes in the kills zone then they are not for me. Yes they died and dead is dead but, if it wasn't for the snow cover and their tracks, finding them would have been a bitch.

The only deer I've shot with a Nosler (150g 308) left a lovely blood trail including aspirated bits of lung.
It ran about 75 yards after having both lungs destroyed and its aorta severed by the shot.
The entrance wound was the size of a penny and the exit was 2.5-3".

All this talk made me go out and buy some 130 grn. ballistic tips for my 270 winchester! Anyone have a good recipe??? Thanks!

buckmstr,

I pesonally think the 130s may be alittle light for anything over 150 lbs at high velocities but, at moderate loads they should be superb. The 140s do great! I have seen the 140s in action out of a 270 Wby Mag.

Just a couple of days ago I purchased a box of .277 150 grn. NBTs. I am curious to see how they do. I would imagine they are probably going to be tack drivers.

Try some H 4831. My model 700 270 has loved H4831 w/ just about every bullet I have thrown at it.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Whoa there! O'connor was using original surplus 4831, which was a tad slower in burning rate than any of the current 4831's (expecially the IMR version). EVEN with my supply of the slower original 4831, my particular .270 only wants 58.5 grains with a 130 (and the wonderful old Nosler Solid Base, progentor to the Ballistic Tip). I've seen .270's that could digest the 60 grain load, but play it safe and knock off a couple of grains to start with. Actually, the current IMR 7828 is only a smidgeon slower than orignal 4831, so you might want to try it. I wouldn't be surprised if 60 grains of 7828 isn't the cat's whiskers behind a 130 B.Tip.

If folks would slow thing down a bit, 3000 fps or less most of "bullet failure" problems would disapper. It won't make a huge trajectory difference, your barrels will last longer, and you will probably be a better shot in the field.