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I was reading about how many bullets aren't even stabilized until 200-300yds. Is it true? Would it make sense to test my loads at 300 yds to see the results after stabilization? | ||
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One of Us |
Uh...I don't know what you are reading but that is not true... Many a well built rifle in many different calibers will consistently shoot .5 to .75 MOA from 50 to 250 yards. If the bullets weren't stabilized this kind of accuracy and consistency wouldn't exist. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Its not a matter of whether the bullet will stabilize, it's more a matter of how a particular bullet/load reacts to a particular barrel. I routinely shoot loads at 300 yards (on CALM days!) and I find that it is not always true that if a load prints 2" at 200 yds it will print 3" at 300. It is more likely that they will print a bit larger out at 300, even on a Led Sled. Some bullets are better than others in this regard. Just yesterday I was shooting a friends .280 Rem with Rem 150gr factory loads. At 100 yards the load printed 1¾" at 100 yds. So one might expect this 'should' shoot about 4½" at 300.. But it turned out this load printed 9" at 300 yds. (3-round group) So you really don't know how a particular bullet/load will shoot in a particular barrel at 300 yards until you actually get out and shoot at that distance. Most do very well.. Some don't do so well. Why do they call it common sense, when it is so uncommon?? | |||
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Likewise I have had some loads in some guns that would print a ragged one inch group at 100 yards yet shoot an inch and a half at 300. I shot an H&K 91 one time [308] quite a bit. With a 4X Military S&B scope, off of the bipod, prone on the ground, no rear bag, it would shoot a group about the size of the palm of my hand with West German Military Ball ammo... At 400 Meters it would shoot a group about the size of the palm of my hand.... These results were repratable.. You never know what a rifle/ammo combination will do till you shoot it at THAT SPECIFIC range. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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It can be True. Depends on the particular Bullet, Load combination, Twist, Bore condition and the mystical Barrel "likes and dislikes". Occasionally a particular barrel just won't shoot a specific Bullet well regardless of what we do. It always makes excellent sense to Test Loads way out yonder "if" you intend to take shots at that distance or if you are using the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method. With Mr. Audette's Method, you can locate the Harmonic Nodes easier at 300yds than can be done at closer distances. The trick is to do it when there is no wind, which generally means right after sunrise or right before sunset. And if you think a shot was not good at the pull of the Trigger, then that should be noted on the Target. Some thought must be given to how you know which "Hole" represents which "Shot" once they are out where it is difficult to see them with a lot of magnification. But, it can be done. Of course, if a person is using a Revolver Cartridge or one of the older high Trajectory Cartridges, then 300yds is beyond their limits unless you are just doing it for fun plinking. Best of luck to you. | |||
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What Hot Core said, and plenty of it. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Like the other guys said, it just depends. I have had great shooting groups @ 100yds in one rifle & they won'y hold that same accuracy @ 300yds. I have had groups thatr were just ok @ 100yds shoot better @ 300yds. There is no rule of thumb, every rifle/load combo will be diff. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Not sure how scientific it was, but when shooting a lot of long range matches, would go to local 300 yd range to see how my loads were peforming and primary reason was that I felt the wind was not really a strong factor until starting at the 300 line. Shooting was done prone/sling/"irons" and even though the chrono showed single digit deviation in velocity wanted to double check plus practice on my position, sight picture, etc. It always seemed to me that if the load/gun/shooter could hold a clean target w/ fair number of X's(50% or better) at that range, it would hold true on out there to the 600 and beyond, if I did my part. Never seen any advantage to shooting at lesser range for I expected it to hold well, but mind you I was not shooting so much for groups, but wanting X's which is approx. 1 moa. Rifles would shoot well under 1 moa on the bench, but you loose a lot of the human factor involved and that was the key variable I had to control. For me anyway, if it worked good at 300, it worked good wherever. martin | |||
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The further the better. If your self imposed max is 500 yards, then actually shoot at that range. You will know drop, windage and accuracy all actual, not pc generated. | |||
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I believe the info you read is correct, but generally does not apply to us mere hunter/shooter/non long range BR expert types. The facts are that some bullets, particularly heavy bullets out of a 308Win, used for 800,900 & 1000yd shooting have to be started at a certain speed in order to stay supersonic at the 1000yd targets. If they become subsonic while in flight, they go thru some type of gravity storm that ruins accuracy. For some reason, many times these bullets DO NOT fully stabilize until they hit the 200-300yd mark. It's just a weird combination of speed, twist and bullet diameter/length needed for a very specific purpose. | |||
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Sometimes bullets do not "go to sleep" for a hundred yards or more. It has nothing to do with their encountering a "gravity storm" at the sound barrier. It has to do with the physical balance characteristics of the bullet design/construction. For a good, simple (but lengthy) English explanation, go to Yahoo! Groups, then go to the Group called Jose's Gallery of Bullet Science. On the home page of that group you will find access to a number of Links...one of which is very thorough explanation of "How bullets fly", and why they act as they do in flight. There are numerous other interesting links there too, including one on the history of the use of and functioning of nitro-glycerine/dynamite in the United States. Edited to add: Just found a direct link to the "How Bullets Fly" info. This will get you to that, but not to the very interesting articles on the history of nitroglycerine: www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm | |||
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Hot Core is correct (gulp!). The Audette method is recommended to be shot at 300 yards to eliminate statistical variations. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I was told some 30 years ago to shoot at 300 yards in preparation for a match by very experienced shooters and practiced that, but now I can read why it is a good idea. I will read suggested data and see if I can understand it. I have been told that somewhere in Nevada there is a facility(gov't owned of course) which actually monitors/records/"sees" the flight of projectiles(small arms as well as other types of weapons) out to whatever distance via side scan radar and other high tech devices. It always catches my attention to be spotting/scoring for a shooter and watching his bullet trace/trail go down range to the target and before long you can just about predict what score that shot will make by watching it's path. Phenomenon is when the shooter is doing well, 10's and X's and suddenly a shot will go down range and usually on the last leg of the flight, an abrupt departure from it's original path will take place. Always have to deal with the wind, but this occurs when the wind is no more or less than previous shots and never heard a factual explanation for this action of the bullet?? From time to time a shooter will bring his latest wildcat round, looks like a 460Wby necked down to 22 cal. and not uncommon to see such rounds vaporize mid flight. Usually the shooter is new to the game and can't understand why his target did not go down and when calls for a mark, the big red circle shows up in the top center of the board- a miss! It can be calculated if desired, but the rotational speed of that bullet must be something fierce and apparently just "comes unglued." Such things make the shooting of rifles so much fun. | |||
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Once I've got a load that works well at 100, I ALWAYS test drive it at 2 & 300 yds before I hunt with it. I've thrown away some promising @100 loads and kept some that were way better at 200 than they looked at 100. I've also learned that ballistic programs are no more than a general guide. Always sight your rifle in at the actual distance. 1.5" high at 100 may be 4" high at 200 and still climbing at 300 but dead on at 200 works well from 50 to 350 in my rifle. Pancho LTC, USA, RET "Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids." Clint Eastwood Give me Liberty or give me Corona. | |||
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Any significant amount of wind, particularly if the wind is inconsistent, will make valid group testing at 300 yards very difficult. If you're going to try some 300 yard groups, wait for a very still day. Early morning is usually the best opportunity. Shooting in the wind may tell you something about how "good" the shooter is at compensating ("doping") for wind, but it will only confuse the issue of how accurate your load is. | |||
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Stonecreek, I agree with you about the wind and attempting to shoot "groups" but for my purposes, no bench, prone/sling/metalic sights, if the rounds grouped in the 7 ring at 2 o'clock that would be poor performance regardless of the group size. Good friend of mine, who is a dedicated bench shooter, and I often shoot together and always interests me that he will take several minutes to shoot a five shot group and in the same time I have shot a 20 rnd. string at 300. He insists that he must let his barrel cool and mine is hot enough to not hold. You have 20 minutes to put down 20 rounds and I don't give much thought to how hot the barrel is for it is beyond my control. Friendly in nature, but he always tells me how terrible such shooting is to the bore and that I am going to ruin my barrel. He then informs me how long his barrel will last and is in pristine condition. If you don't shoot it much it will last longer. Two different worlds, but this shooting game keeps us off the streets and out of the bars, so it must have value. martin | |||
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If you plan on hunting/shooting at 300 or more yards, then, of course, it is to your advantage to shoot at that distance. Once I've done the ladder test to determine the best (better) range of powder, I develope my actual loads at 100 but I test my chosen load at distance to see what it will do. A load book or a 'puter program will only give you an estimate. Only your rifle can tell you what it will do with xxx load at xxx distance. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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RDub, Would that not be 1 3/4 @ 100, 3 1/2 @ 200, and 7 @ 300? Or am I calculating incorrectly? NRA Life Endowment Member | |||
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