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For those of you who do measure runout, do you measure just on the neck or on the bullet (on the ogive?) or both? If you do measure on the bullet, what do you feel is an acceptable number? I ask because in my last batch of reloads the necks ran mostly about .0015 out, which I was very happy with, but the bullets from the ogives on the majority were up around .005 and .006. Should I be trying to keep this at .003 or less too? | ||
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I measure all of my loaded ammo on the ogive and sort batches of 50 best to worst and you will get a range from Zero to .008/.009 I mark the runout with a single number near the rim on the body with a sharpie and use the worst for fouling shots and the best for measuring groups. As for trying for .003 or less...good luck, many say they load (Dead Nuts Ammo) but not many actualy check thier work. . ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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It is unusual for you to get more runout on the bullet than you get on the bullet unless you are using a bushing die and do not turn necks. What type of sizing die are you using? ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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i have had some necked up new brass go as high as 20 out. i have also had some go 8 out and only be 4 out after fire forming. i've been able to predict crooked ones by measuring on the neck before loading after sizing. sometimes i wonder if i am measuring runout or case deficiencies. | |||
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Run-out is run-out, it ALL comes from bent necks. No one makes crooked bullets and no seater can correct for a bent neck. Reforming cases by necking UP is the worst possible way to make a neck. I much prefer to neck down if that's possible. Either way, there is little point in measuring a reformed neck until it's been fired and sized again. Where to measure depends on how the cartridge is supported. My gage supports the round at the extractor groove and bullet meplat so I measure just off the mouth of the case. If it supported the round at the shoulder I would measure as close to the meplat as possible. The point being, read at the point that gives you the largest possible reading. Doing otherwise is just kidding yourself on how much R.O. you have. No matter how the round is supported, measuring on the case neck includes any neck thickness variation you may have. That's a bad thing, it can easily indicate "run-out" when there is none. It's worth mentioning that actual bullet run-out is only half of the dial indictor's reading, that's called "Total Indicated Run-out" (TIR). | |||
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One often-overlooked problem with runout after necking up or down is the neck hardness and its affect on the neck thickness. Whenever brass is worked, the soft spots move more than the hard spots. This means that even with new brass the necks are often uneven in thickness because they're uneven in hardness and have already been formed to some degree. This allows the uneven hardness to make the neck even more out-of-round during reforming since the brass always follows the path of least resistance. One partial solution is to always anneal the necks before any reforming operation. This will help to promote the evenness of the brass movement and thereby also help to prevent the uneven thickening that will result in excessive runout. The annealing will also serve to even-out the bullet pulls of the cases in that lot, at least theoretically resulting in better accuracy. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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After 3 firings my brass is put in a bag to be annealed. This is a very often over looked step in the quest to have the most accurate ammunition possible. | |||
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Thanks for the responses. | |||
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Sorry Jim...you are wrong on this one. I have several bullets that run out with knecks that check under .001 and this is checked in the I.D. not the O.D. of the case.....yes a bullet can be seated out of center with a good case I have proved it to myself many times over. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Ummmm .... How does one check ID trueness with a seated bullet? A case may be true prior to seating, but runout occurs during seating, no? Well, a neck can have runout before seating too. Regards 303Guy | |||
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If you are anal about your runout as we are in BR, you can chamber a fireforming barrel. I needed a barrel to fireform 30BR from 6BR. I had a 22 barrel. I reamed the rifling to fit my 30BR reamer bushing and chambered the barrel. I fireform with Bulleyes and a wax plug. I do not use a bullet!! This expands the neck and lengthens the case. This leaves only a few thousands to expand for my neck turner or none if using a no neck turn chamber. I make my own seater die with my chambering reamer. My sizing die reamer was ordered at the same time as my chambering reamer. I spec'ed it .002 under at the shoulder and .003 at the base. I bump the shoulders .001 everytime. Butch | |||
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I check the OD of the bullet on loaded ammo at the ogive,....and the ID of the case before loading to check for kneck run out. This method rules out wall thickness showing up a false run-out reading. I am not a BR shooter but I am anal about all things loading. I got into loading for one reason...(to build the best ammo as I am cappable, just for me) ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Thanks. What about angular runout versus parallel axial runout? Not sure that that the end result would be any different but just the same, how would one measure each and distinguish between them? (I would suspect that angular misalignment of the bullet would be worse than parallel misalignment). Regards 303Guy | |||
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They run hand-in-hand you cant have one and not the other. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Naw Ted, actually I'm sure we agree, I just expressed myself poorly. Again, runout is caused by bent necks. What I dint say, and you correctly point out, is that seaters can actully bend the necks during seating. That effect is expecially prevalent with the popular, but bad, idea of high bullet "tension" as a desirable thing; it isn't. If the necks are straight, low bullet tension contributes greatly to straight seating. Most common seaters have loosely fitted seating stems that deflect to the side under high seating loads and, once the bullet starts in off axis, it's virtually impossible to correct it. The popular idea of seating half way and turning the case half around before continueing sounds good but I have seen no improvement with that. Seems the seater plug just moves with the bullet snd exerts no significant corrective pressure. IF the plugs were actually tightly fitted that method should help but most are not tight, not even close, and if they were properly fitted such turning wouldn't be needed. | |||
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