Took my Savage 110 7mm. RM to the range yesterday and got the surprise of my life. I had worked up some loads previously and tried them out with no over-pressure indications. They were:

Sierra 160SP & IMR4350 from 58.8 - 61 gr. Fed215
" & IMR7828 to 68.7 "
" & RL22 from 64 - 66 gr. "

I had fired these rounds once before and although the upper limits of the loads were heavy and substantial there were no overt signs of over-pressure. Yesterday however, the accuracy was horrible at 100 yds. I had sticky bolt lift, cratered primers and even saw an imprint of the extractor on the head of one case. One primer at the lower limits was blown out and resting in the magazine well. I didn't dare shoot the upper limit loads which I will dismantle.

All charges are individually weighed. There were no double charges etc. I did NOT have this problem with BD 30 gr. and the Sierra 160gr.& WLR which shot cloverleafs at 100 yds. nor with IMR 4198 @ 35gr. with the same bullet - both of which are reduced loads.

I have read about temperature sensitivity on this board and I am wondering if this might be the problem. When I loaded these rounds last month the temp. in the garage where I reload was about 35 - 40 degrees. Yesterday was a beautiful sunny 70 degrees. If everything else is held equal can this be the cause of the gross overpressure I saw? I cleaned the barrel at the range once and still the same problem. I tried different seating depths at the lower limit of the IMR 4350 and still the overpressure signs. Would appreciate any feedback about what I experienced.

Please - do not make this a discussion about the pros/cons of using Blue Dot. I am really concerned with the primary issue I related.

Thanks, Wayne

quote:

Took my Savage 110 7mm. RM to the range yesterday and got the surprise of my life. I had worked up some loads previously and tried them out with no over-pressure indications. They were:

Sierra 160SP & IMR4350 from 58.8 - 61 gr. Fed215
" & IMR7828 to 68.7 "
" & RL22 from 64 - 66 gr. "

FYI my manual shows 58 grains as a max and you're considerably over this at 61 (IMR-4250) and over the max with IMR-7828 by 4.7 grains

quote:

I had fired these rounds once before and although the upper limits of the loads were heavy and substantial there were no overt signs of over-pressure. Yesterday however, the accuracy was horrible at 100 yds. I had sticky bolt lift, cratered primers and even saw an imprint of the extractor on the head of one case. One primer at the lower limits was blown out and resting in the magazine well. I didn't dare shoot the upper limit loads which I will dismantle.

Clear pressure signs indicated and one needs to do as your doing.....stop and ask....WHY!

When one pushes the envelope he also runs a chance of copper fouling and this can then raise pressures......as a "rough guess", you're already at 75,000 PSI so it's not going to take much to see the indications you're observing.

You may also have stretched the cases too long.....(you did not mention trimming cases) and this may cause some difficulties....

Get a good copper cleaner and clean the barrel thoroughly and trim the brass (if you haven't) and back off your loads at least three grains and see where you are again.

Hi. It appears the loads you quoted would be very hot even in cool weather and yes the increase in tempt. can easily put these loads over the top. I have often seen a velocity change in excess of 100 to 125 fps with the temp. change you quoted. I am sure many of us have gone over book max loads to work up the load we were looking for, but this is exactly what we must watch for when this is done. Also some calibers were loaded to low pressure levels ( like 7mm mauser 257 roberts and even the 30:06),but the 7mag is loaded up pretty well from the start so we have much less leadsway. Good leason here and I am glad there was no harm.

Wayne, your loads look a little on the heavy side to me, although I don't own a Sierra manual. I don't know why they would shoot okay once and then not the next time unless it was somewhat warmer weather on the second trip. I did have this happen with a 22/250Rem once and finally fixed the problem by trading the rifle off. When this happened with my rifle it was not temp related or too hot of loads as I backed the charge off substantially and the problem persisted.

My Sierra manual is alot "Hotter" than any of my others spooky hot sometimes with the 7 rem mag

My old Sierra manual does show 61 grains of IMR4350 as maxload but this seems to be completely out of step with with the rest of today's manuals I have.

The temperature affect has raised it's ugly head a number of times for me. One such time was with 4350. roger

LuckyDuck: it was much warmer on the 2nd shooting day.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
My old Sierra manual does show 61 grains of IMR4350 as maxload but this seems to be completely out of step with with the rest of today's manuals I have.

The temperature affect has raised it's ugly head a number of times for me. One such time was with 4350. roger

Roger: I have seen this load in my Hornady manual Vol.II where it had a 162gr. BTHP of almost the same design (I know it is not the same though) and they have 63.2 as max. I have also seen a number of people cite 61gr. of IMR4350 and Sierra 160gr. in many locations on the internet from reputable sites that claim this is a great load. I even backed it down to 58.8gr as someone had recommended and saw the overpressure signs too.

I just checked my cases from yesterday prior to cleaning and I noticed a partial case head separation on the IMR4198/35gr. case with 160gr. Sierra bullet which is supposed to simulate the 7mm/08 for my son. I got this load from this site and was a reduced load to help with a bad shoulder and young son shooting.

I have long term reloading experience (35 years) with handgun cartridges and began rifles (.243 and 7mm. RM) a little over a year ago so I am open to any and all criticism (as long as it is constructive. ) I really am worried since this is really for my young son (14) more than for me.

Think about picking your loads based on at least 5 manuals.

Throw the high and low manuals out and average the remaining 3. I would say skip max load development below 50 degrees. Why push the maximums? I am happy to find the maximum load and then back off 4 or 5 percent so my cases last for ever.

quickload says NO with standard SAAMI specs on overall length etc.

I would back off a bunch--at least 3 or 4 grains and see what's up!

quote:

Originally posted by aerostarp:
LuckyDuck: it was much warmer on the 2nd shooting day.


I just checked my cases from yesterday prior to cleaning and I noticed a partial case head separation on the IMR4198/35gr. case with 160gr. Sierra bullet which is supposed to simulate the 7mm/08 for my son. I got this load from this site and was a reduced load to help with a bad shoulder and young son shooting. .

This I do believe is another problem, one that might be related to a belted case having the shoulder being pushed back too far once or more than once.
Useing the shoulder to head space 7mm mag.reloads seems the way to go for me.

SR4759s formula seems to have merrit,especially working up loads only in warm or hot temperatures, findinding what looks like a max. load and than backing off. If I had serious concern, however,had only minimal experience, and was working with those 5 manuals, I would start with the LOWEST PUBLISHED load for that bullet using the powder of choice. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
quickload says NO with standard SAAMI specs on overall length etc.

I would back off a bunch--at least 3 or 4 grains and see what's up!

Fish: Which load are you referring to?

quote:

This I do believe is another problem, one that might be related to a belted case having the shoulder being pushed back too far once or more than once.

Roger: most of these loads were only Neck Sized with a Lee Collet Die. Some of the others were P-FLR. It would not be due to FLR and pushing the shoulder back a few times. Also, in answer to your previous question I did trim all the cases. Wayne

PM answered as requested...

I had some problems with my 110 Savage shooting some Barnes bullets. I had signs of excessive pressure.
I cleaned the copper build up out of the barrel and the pressure signs went away.

I've had the same experience with RL22.

I SIMPLY DON'T USE IT ANYMORE!!!

The experience was with my .30 Gibbs. Same charge weight, same boolit, same seating depth, etc, etc. Loads were fine.

Next time out, blew primer pocket. Primer fell into my hand. Lucky for me, the #1 action is hell for stout.

I still use RL 15 & RL 19. RL 22 scares the schitt outta me . . . .

Stay with H4831SC for all loads needing this burn rate powder.

Your loads are certainly running the edge. If you tested them at 40deg, then @ 70 you could get some add'l. pressure. If you leave ammo in the sun, even on a cool day that can push a max. load over the top.
I moved to IMR7828 from RL22 for 160gr loads because I found it more stable from lot to lot. IMO, 4350 is a bit fast for optimum 160gr loads in the 7mag.

Wayne,
As stated previously, some of the older Sierra manuals have HOT loads, approach with caution!
My understanding of temperature's effect on pressures has to do with the temp that the rounds are fired at, not the diff in when they were loaded vs when they were fired. For example, if your ammo is at 35f when you fire it and you see no indications of over pressure, that same round may give you over pressure if you fire it at 100f on a summer day. I don't think the temp at which it was loaded makes any difference. Can anyone correct me on this?

Just one last point, I understand wanting to get all of the performance you can out of your rifle but if you really want a faster 7mm, it's cheaper to buy a RUM or STW, don't blow up what you have.

Thanks to all of you for your replies.

I went to the range again today with light BD 30 GR.loads including IMR4198 - 35 ( a 7mm/08 type load) and some IMR4350 at 57 - 58.5. All bullets were the Sierra 160gr. as I mentioned earlier and I was using WLR primers. Some of the cases were Lee Collet Neck Sized (the BD loads) and others were PFLR loads (the 7mm/08s).

I never got to the IMR 4350s because almost every one of the BD & 4198 loads had a partial case-head separation or incipient which was very obvious. I'd say about 6 out of 10 rounds and then I quit. These cases were loaded probably 3 times and some were the ones I used yesterday. Oddly enough they were sub MOA and chronographed within 25 fps. of each other.

My friend who hunts and reloads happened to call me at the range and I told him what was happening. He uses Savage rifles also and got me into them. He told me he had the same thing happen to him with a Savage 30-06. He said the chambers are cut somewhat loosely and what turned out to be the culprit was using bulk Winchester cases. He said they are softer than say Remington and he was getting case head separations with them after 3 - 4 reloads. He switched to Remington bulk cases and never had the problem again.

I just dismanteled 50 cartridges I had loaded and will not use these previously loaded Winchester cases again. Guess I will have to throw out all 100 of them after barely 3 loads.

Does what I have been told make sense to you? I have eliminated every other problem the forum members have mentioned. I guess once the soft brass was overstressed by the hot loads there is no going back. I noticed that some of the primers went in quite easily too when I reloaded them yesterday.

Thanks for seeing me through this. Kind of exassperating but would welcome a simple solution like changing brass.

Wayne

quote:

what turned out to be the culprit was using bulk Winchester cases. He said they are softer than say Remington and he was getting case head separations with them after 3 - 4 reloads. He switched to Remington bulk cases and never had the problem again.

Get your gun to someone with a headspace gauge and have it checked.

Case head separation is caused by excess headspace primarily and not soft brass.

It's easy to set headspace on Savage rifles and setting it to minimum is going to do more for you than anything else.

quote:

Get your gun to someone with a headspace gauge and have it checked.

Case head separation is caused by excess headspace primarily and not soft brass.

It's easy to set headspace on Savage rifles and setting it to minimum is going to do more for you than anything else.

Sounds like great advice. I did not realize that it was easy to set headspace on a rifle. I will find a gunsmith here and have it checked.

Thanks Vapo and to everyone else who contributed. Sure learn a lot from all of you.

Wayne

Update - I took Vapodog's advice and brought the rifle to a competent gunsmith. He checked the headspace with a "NO-GO" gauge and the bolt closed like nothing was in there. That apparently meant an oversized headspace of .008" I was told. He tried an even larger gauge (0.012") but fortunately that did not fit.

Anyway, since the rifle is under warranty they are sending it back to Savage to have it properly adjusted.

I imagine this will solve the problem or at least help the brass last longer in the future.

Nice Call Vapodog - Wayne