I have a .357mag and have been loading jacketed bullets for some time with good accuracy, but I decided to load some .38 specials to practice with.I used a 162gr hard cast bullet with a wax ring by hunters supply.I loaded these by working up to a +p load keeping under 1000fps so not to cause leading the barrel.After shooting about 50 rounds I notest oval holes on the target and massive leading in the barrel.I backed off the load down to standard .38 loads and got no ovals and less leading (lots less) but I would like to load this bullet in a .357mag, how to keep out the tumble and the lead?You guys got any ideas other than useing the bullets for fishing wieghts.

p.s. At the gun shop where I got the bullets the manager said I didn't need lubricant with wax ring bullets. true or false?

Nighthunter, pard;

"Hard Cast" bullets are a MISTAKE. They are NOT desireable for almost any practical use in conventional revolvers. Using hard-cast commercial bullets leads to more grief with normal revolvers than any other factor, and sours more cast-bullet users than almost any other factor.

Hard bullets need HIGH pressure to bump them up in diameter and seal the chamber mouths and barrel throat. The lower the pressure, the SOFTER the alloy needed.

Straight wheelweight metal, which is not very hard at all, works perfectly in revolver loads up to at least 1500 fps, as long as lubrication (those "wax rings" on the bullets) is adequate, and the bullets are correctly sized. And yes, you most definitely DO need the lubricant. Your source at the gunshop is an idiot who knows nothing about cast bullets.

The "lube" ("wax rings")on most commercial bullets is garbage, not fit for anything. Also, most commercial cast bullets are UNDERSIZE, which allows powder gases to blast past the bullet in its travel, melting metal and depositing it in the barrel.

.44 cast bullets should be at least .431" diameter, and .357s about .359"....THEN your bullets will seal the throats and bore properly and you won't get that leading problem.

One of the most important benefits of personally casting one's bullets is the ability to decide what diameter YOU need for YOUR guns. A Lee mould may be had for less than $20, and any old pan or pot can be used for a trial excursion into casting your own bullets.

To learn a LOT more, go to

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com

which is by far the best site on the Internet on this subject. Ask questions!

I have gotten better results with hard cast bullets in every revolver that I have owned. However, most of those revolvers needed a gas check to shoot cleanly and accurately, hard, soft, or otherwise.

Likewise extensive testing has shown that some hard lubes like Rooster HVR will outperform soft lubes.

There are a lot of old wives tales in the casting world.

Your main concern should be 1) sizing the bullet to fit the throat, as Bren Mk1 suggested, and 2) if that doesn't solve the problems, use a gas check.

You've already gotten conflicting reports, so here is mine. It sounds like your bullets have not been sized & lubed. This is a must, th single greatest cause of leading in a pistol is over or undersized bullets, throw in no lube, I'm surprised you could even hit the target after 50rds. The .357 can be a worse case round as far as leading goes, but I've fired 1000s of hard casr, 158grSWC w/o a gas check. Up to 1300fps or so, you should have little problems w/ leading. Check this out:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

I concur with Bren, commercial hard cast bullets are generally a bad deal, as they need really pressures before they will obturate and seal the bore. They are further hampered by usually being on the smaller size, having a bevel base and using a very hard nearly useless lube, all of which allow the gas to blow by the bullet and cause leading. I'd suggest getting a bottle of Lee tumble lube and using it on the bullets. It may be just the ticket.

Unfortunately there aren't alot of choices in commercial cast bullets these days. You have the swaged dead soft bullets from the major makers that really shouldn't be pushed past 800 fps, the aformentioned hard cast that they only thing I've found them good for is adding to my wheelweights when casting my own bullets, and then the premium bullets like Cast Performance that are very good, but spendy.

If you want to get into casting, Lee makes some very good molds in 357, I'd suggest both their 158 gr swc and rf molds, cast from wheelweights and you'll have a great practice and hunting bullet. Size them .358" to .359" and use a good lube like LBT blue and you'll be able to drive them 700-1200 fps with no leading and great accuracy, provided your revolver has cast friendly dimensions, ie .358-.359" throats, and no constriction where the barrel screws into the frame.

If that doesn't solve the problems, use a gas check.[/quote]

I hope you didn't mean to imply that a gas check could be put on any bullet, such is NOT the case. A bullet HAS to be designed to take a gas check by the mold manufacturer. The gas check is then installed during the sizing/lubrication process.

You can indeed shoot hard cast bullets at less than magnum velocities, IF the bullet is sized to the throat exactly.

In a revolver there are 3 areas of concern. The cylinder diameter just in front of the chamber, the throat diameter at the back end of the barrel, and precise alignment of the cylinder and barrel. Most times the first 2 diameters are the same,( or at least they SHOULD be). If not, you have to comprimise on the sized diameter of your bullets.

The timing of the cylinder and barrel can be adjusted by a pistolsmith if it is out of time, causing the clylinder bore and the barrel center line to be off. A test for this is to very slowly cock the hammer, in single action mode, then see if you can turn the cylinder further to hear a click as the cylinder lock activates. If you can, then the hand that rotates the cylinder is too short.

Another thing that is probably happening to you is useing 38 special brass in a .357 revolver. This makes the bullet jump a totaly unsuported area in front of the case,(because the 38 special case is shorter than the .357). If the bullet is fairly long, then the missalignment is negligble, but it gives the hot powder gasses a shot at the side of the bullet. It also makes the bullet "jump" further before encountering the rifling.

You can use 38 special loads in .357 brass, which takes care of the bullet jump problem.

If you want to get to 357 Mag velocities then skip the hard cast and just get a Lee mold with a gas check and some wheelweights and go shooting. It will save you a lot of grief.

Hi all,I measured the cylinder (.356) and checked the alignment and it looks good.I can't measure the barrel my calipers are too big.I also measured the bullets (.356) funny the box is marked (.357).
Now what!(trash'm)

Thanks for helping.

nighthunter those bullets are sized for 9mm evidently.... the guys are right take their advice!!.... so far as what size the .38 -.357mag revolver and lead cast bullets go my mod 27 s&w likes em sized to .358 and they do need lubed... my bullets are cast out of salvaged range lead with some linotype in the mix.........


LIFE IS SHORT....................

There is a ton of good information about hardcast bullets and the unique qualities of shooting them at this site as well.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/

They have a great Q & A section and will help you figure out what exactly will work in your gun, how to slug the barrel (instead of guessing the desired diameter), gas checks etc. I use them all the time in my .357 max with extremely good results.

I get great results with .358" 158 gr LSWC [with one lube band] hard cast of any of many brands I have tried.

I always push them fast.



The soft swaged hollow base bullets pushed down into the case with 2 gr of powder are best for target shooting.

Nighthunter, I have a 50-yard one-hole group I shot out of a 357 Redhawk using my 180-grain hard cast TCs and 14 grains of AA #9. That is WAY out the top of the load chart (so DON'T try it!!!), but the cases almost fell out of the cylinder, and I had very little lead in the barrel.
What these guys are telling you is absolutely correct. Most commercial bullets are cast entirely too hard, because if they are dented, people won't buy them.
I cast for everything I own, rifles included, and would be happy to send you a hundred of my 158s to try. They shoot well, and leave very little lead. (And anyone that tells you that their cast bullets don't lead at all is lying to you... ALL lead bullets leave some amt of alloy in the barrel.)
Just let me know if you want to try some of these. They are 75% ww and 25% lino...

Doubless,
14 gr and 180 gr hard cast is 52kpsi in Quickload.


I have shot 15 gr and 158gr LSWC, 49 kpsi in Quickload. The cases were very sticky, and did not want to come out of the cylinder. My cylinder was a Colt Police Positive with thin cylinder walls. That causes cases to stick easliy:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm...d53/921215b9dcac6d5c

tnekkcc, thanks for taking the time to run the data on Quickload. I don't have that software...
And I should have written that the Redhawk has a massive cylinder in the original post, which does reinforce the brass better.
Again, my thanks.