Fiftydriver, please notice that I said "somewhat" disappointed and I made it a point not to call this a failure. Personally, I think any bullet that puts a deer on the ground within 50 yards, as this one did, is a success. However, I still find it hard to believe, with the shot I made, that it didn't easily penetrate. I guess this is because I can't remember shooting a deer with a high powered rifle in the last 25 years or so and not getting an exit wound. I know at short distances the .300 Wby pushes a bullet to and perhaps beyond its limits, but I've used other bullets in it at short range also and gotten results that I personally find more desirable. For instance, last year using the 165 gr. Hornady SST I shot a similar sized whitetail in almost the identical spot behind the shoulder and at about the same distance of 20 to 25 yards. I got a quarter sized entrance wound, a silver dollar sized exit and tons of blood on the ground. The deer fell within 15 feet of where it was hit.

You make good points. I especially like the example of trying to hammer a quarter through a phone book. Come to think of it, that's about what the Scirocco looked like after I recovered it, a quarter. I suppose it's just better suited for milder velocities.

Delta Hunter- I'am glad you found the Bullet In-Tact all I found was Fragments of Bullet Jacket( thats what I call BULLET BLOW-UP) If you do use them again let us know how they did.

It's possible that the Remington factory Load did have SUB-PAR Scirocco Bullet as someone else suggested.
Haven't as yet recieved a reply to my Letters to either Remington or Swift,when I do I will post something.

Delta Hunter,

It is simply the fact that because the Scirocco held together so well that the penetration was limited and didn't go the final 1/2" to exit.

The Bonded Core will not let the lead core fall away and because of this, the bullet just contiues to expand to larger and larger diameters. The larger the diameter gets the more the bullet is slowed down and penetration is reduced accordingly.

The SST bullets you mentioned do very little if anything to keep the lead core in the jacket once expansion starts. As soon as the jacket begins to peel away from its original unfired position, the lead core begins to be smeared off.

This conventional bullet, along with the Bal. Tips have a core that can be easily torn away from the jacket and rest of the core lead. Because of this and the relatively thin jacket walls, the frontal diameter stays under 2 calibers in diameter.

It is this much smaller diameter that allows these bullets to fully exit. Even though these bullet loose much more weight then the Scirocco's during penetration, they also loose very little velocity because they do not resist loosing the lead core.

Because of this higher velocity during penetration, combined with the smaller diameter allows them to fully penetrate critters the size of deer.

I would have to agree with you that for deer size game, the Ballistic Tip is a very good choice. As far as the SST bullets, I have seen enough Hornady Inter-Lock bullets fail on deer size game that I will not use them nor will I ever recommend them.

I feel the Scirocco bullets would have been better designed if they only had a forward bonded lead core, perhaps extending half way down the bullet and a solid copper back half, somewhat like a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw but with a sleeker profile and a polymer tip.

This would allow very good expansion, higher retained weight, longer bullet shank after full expansion and much deeper penetration on close range shots. Instead of the 1" diameter mushroom, it would be controlled to the 2.5 caliber diameter range.

But thats just my opinion.

Good Hunting!!!

50

I won't use them for hunting anything bigger than deer. A couple of years ago, I expermented by firing bullets through milk jugs of water with my 7mm mag. The 150 gr. Scirocco went through 3 jugs (found in forth), and retained 67% of its weight. The 140 gr. failsafe made it through 6 jugs as a comparison.
I still have the bullets. If you like, I can post picture of them.

Please post them.

Old Fart,
a round nosed solid might have gone through 10 or 12 jugs.
does that mean it is a better hunting bullet?
montero

Old Fart,

I'm sure that the Fail Safe did penetrate much deeper then the Scirocco bullets.

Of course these bullets are designed with one thing in mind, extreme penetration, thats about it. They expand to a small frontal area, by design for deep penetration. They have a very long bullet shank after full expansion, again for extreme penetration and straight penetration.

These are basically super bullets and I see no need for them on game smaller then elk, and that is pushing it.

Lets compare apples to apples here. I bet my 425 gr WFNGC hard cast bullets from my 480 Ruger at 1200 fps would penetrate much deeper then your 140 gr Fail Safes, in fact I know they will.

This is not a topic about which bullet is the best penetrating, nor is the deepest penetrating bullet the best for deer size game, that is often a very poor choice.

Good Shooting!!!

50

There are two essential parts that I demand in a hunting bullet. First, to get there accurately, and second, to put the animal down.
I hunt Elk every year, and I design my loads to put these animals down at ranges out to 400 yards.
If you think your 480 Ruger or round nosed bullets are satifactory for these conditions, so be it, but you ain't hunting with me.
The Scirocco was accurate in my 7mm, but failed to meet the bullet performance I demanded. Elk are not fragile animals, and can travel a long distance if the bullet blows up on their shoulder. If you hunt these, or any other magnificent animal, and don't enter bullet performance into your load, then you are doing the animal a serious injustice.
The milk jug test is a excellent way to experiment with bullet performance. I challenge you to shoot your roundnose bullets and 480 Ruger through some jugs, and report on the actual performance. You may be surprised at what you see.
By the way, I selected the 140 gr failsafe, and got a huge 6x6 at close to 400 yards. I attached a picture of the recovered bullet. It lost less than a grains worth of weight.

It doesn't look like the picture link worked. Try it at this address.
http://www.contender-g2.com/bullet.jpg

Old Fart,

I have tested the 425 gr bullet out of my 480 Ruger in penetating gallon jugs filled with water. I lined four up with a 25 pound cinder block behind. At the shot, all the jugs flat exploded and the cinder block crumbled into about four pieces.

I then lined six jugs up with a new block behind and fired again. Again all six jugs were penetrated and the cinder block was cracked from the impact, in fact, the big bullet actually penetrated one wall of the block.

These shots were fired at 30 yards.

There have been many tests done with the 475 and 500 caliber handguns and with bullet over 400 gr and velocity over 1000 fps, penetration is in the 40" range in wet newsprint. When loaded to full tilt, there isn't a small bore high intestity rifle that will even come close to the penetration of these big bullets.

It is suprising to me that your getting accuracy good enough with the Fail Safe for accurate shooting at 400 yards. It is a very complex bullet and the ones I have tested sometimes shot into the 1.5 moa area but I haven't seen much better.

By the way, how much momentum does a 140 gr 7mm bullet have at 400 yards? I would say you better land that bullet just right because your right, elk at very tough critters with a light bullet and a poor shot placement.

Anyway, this topic is talking about the Swift Scirocco bullet for use on deer size game. Where did we start talking about elk rounds and bullets.

Would be a good topic though if you would like to start that line.

Good Hunting!!!

50

As promised, here is a link to the bullets from the water jug test. The bullets are from left to right, 160 gr. Failsafe, 140 gr. Failsafe, 140 gr. Partition (I believe) and the 150 gr. Scirocco. The picture is a bit blurry, but you can see how the Scirocco wrapped completely behind the base (the base is directly behind the initial mushroom).
http://www.contender-g2.com\bulletcp1.jpg

Fiftydriver,
I never intended to diverge from topic. I'm a bit thin-skinned when it comes to big-game bullets.
In my dumber days, I used to be a member of the "accuracy-only counts" crowd. I used my most accurate rifle, a 22-250, to hunt deer for several years. I even killed several deer with it. My awakening came when I wounded a huge 34" Mule deer. I found it the next day, barely alive. The bullet hit a rib, and never penetrated far enough for a quick kill. I still cuss myself to this day thinking of the suffering I put that deer through, and the other deer I lost during that time period. I swore a oath that day that I would never use an inferior game bullet or caliber. I also set distance limits on how far I will shoot depending on the caliber, the accuracy of the gun, and of course the bullet being used.

I have found that the Failsafe is one of the more accurate "big-game" hunting bullets. I have had my worst luck with Barnes X bullets (With a big exception with the Muzzle-loader sabot bullets). Although my 7mm shot the failsafe decently (under MOA), I have since switched to a 300 Wby for long range Elk hunting.

Thanks for the performance information on the 480 Ruger. I may have to get one of those now.

I have a picture of the above mentioned buck at:

http://www.contender-g2.com\mybuck3.jpg

The picture came out darker than it should have. You would expect better quality out of a $29 scanner.

How is the Scirocco working for you all accuracy wise? Finicky or not? Still working the load for my 300 rUM with the 180 gr.

POP,

I have been lucky enough to find accuracy with the top end loads in my 300 Ultra using the 180 Scirocco and a 168 XLC too, the 180 worked well in my M1A and M700 300wm too. 150's, 165's and 180's have not done as good in the others though. I will try the 150's in the 300 Ultra soon, don't have many 165's left. Been using RL25 with it so far.

Shot a couple of 165 grs 30-06 Sciroccos into my test medium today � witch is ice. Distance 15 and 20 meters. Velocity approx 2800 ft/sec. #1: weight 9.15 gram(85.5%), 18.6 mm expanded diameter and 12 mm length. #2: 9.75 gram(91.1%), 18.8 mm expanded diameter and 13.4 mm length.

The accuracy is not bad either: 11 mm 3 shot at 100 meters in my Tikka.

[ 12-14-2002, 22:04: Message edited by: .358PCAK ]