Something I am curious about. Why are people experimenting with Blue Dot poweder for reduced loads when you can use H4895. You can cut the powder charge to 60% as per their website. Is this not reduced enough? Not accurate enough?

Just curious.

The $64,000 question...........

When do I get my $64,000 for asking it?

quote:

Originally posted by hughjass:
When do I get my $64,000 for asking it?

Stay turned, maybe we'll get an answer between blown primers....

MY answer :

Cuz Blue dot burns better at typical rifle pressures than H4895 does at reduced pressures.

Do not think I have anything against H4895, I use alot of it. It works VERY well at normal pressure.

The whole concept ( for me ) is that by keeping pressure at the normal maximum and using a powder that is really far too fast for the application, powder burn is complete, deviation is reduced, and less powder is burned.

Net result is lower velocity, less heat, and better accuracy than a typical reduced load of the standard powder.

Beyond these statements I cannot explain the science behind the results. But, I tried it in 300WSM and was very impressed. If you are really interested , you can search for Seafire's many posts , or my post on 300WSM.


Travis F.

I haven't tried blue-dot, nor 4895, but I have burned a fair bit of Unique in various rifle chamberings. It burns very consistantly in cases that are only 1/3 full, and has been quite accurate. I would suspect that is the reasoning behind the use of blue dot.

If you can safely use a small charge of a faster burning powder, why not use it over a larger charge of a slower burning powder?

Travis F. said it best: [Some] pistol powders, e.g., Unique, burn extremely well in large capacity rifle cartridges, e.g. .243Win., .30-06, whereas some of the slower rifle powders do not. Moreover, you have to use quite a bit more of H 4895 than Unique or B. Dot, but you won't get the low extreme spreads & standard deviations with the former. As I shoot cast bullets exclusively and am not looking to exceed 1,800 fps, pistol powder, especially WC 820 (I use AA #9 data with it.) works very well and is extremely economical to boot. However, I think we all realize that a great deal of care must be used with pistol powders since the possibility of double-charging a case is there.

quote:

Originally posted by hughjass:
when you can use H4895. You can cut the powder charge to 60% as per their website.... Not accurate enough?

Just curious.

You win $64,000 . "At all" would be the words following "Not accurate...." rather than "enough" .

HS

Gentleman:
Using fast burning powders in medium to large rifles using cast bullets has been done safely for decades. But doing the same with Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, or what ever with jacketed bullets, in the long run is asking for trouble. IMO

Paul K

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Brasky:
However, I think we all realize that a great deal of care must be used with pistol powders since the possibility of double-charging a case is there.

Whenever pistol powders are discussed someone always seems to mention the possibility of a double charge. Isn't this always a concern, even if handgun cartridges are being loaded?
I don't see why using a small charge of Unique in a 30-06 case would be any more hazardous than using 2.8 grains of Bullseye in a 38. I ALWAYS double check the powder level in a case before seating the bullet. I even peer into the cases as they rotate around on the Dillon.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul K:
Gentleman:
Using fast burning powders in medium to large rifles using cast bullets has been done safely for decades. But doing the same with Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, or what ever with jacketed bullets, in the long run is asking for trouble. IMO

Paul K

Based on what? I admit to using my unique loads with cast, but don't see what the problem would be with jacketed bullets, so long as the pressures aren't so low that a bullet could get stuck in bore. In the 1700 fps range, I just don't see that happening.

Wimpy loads in the 45Colt can be very accurate with Unique.

Shooting ground squirels with 223 down loaded with Blue Dot works great.

I have shot downloaded IMR4895 loads, but they are still loud for thier velocity.

I've never tried blue dot, but I get 1/2 to 3/4" groups with 45 grains of H4895 in my 300 Win Mag. Has anyone tried Blue Dot in cases as large as the 300 Win?

"

quote:

Originally posted by hughjass:
Something I am curious about. Why are people experimenting with Blue Dot poweder for reduced loads when you can use H4895. You can cut the powder charge to 60% as per their website. Is this not reduced enough? Not accurate enough?

Just curious.

"

There is nothing magic about Blue Dot. THE MAN (Sea Fire ) took the time and energy to illustrate most effectively what could be done with Blue Dot. Yes other powders could have been choosen with similar gratifying results but not 4895; different ball game, different result. Recoil, heat to barrel transfere and cost for powder /shot not even close. I would welcome the data in the same magnitude as Sea Fire supplied from you or anyone else to prove me wrong.

Prop Job or whatever he is calling himself at the moment shared a lot of info he gained from a lot of experimentation with us and peeked our interest in something new, usefull and different to most of us.

Since the start of the Blue Dot episode I've played with it quite a bit and am impressed. I've been playing with 4895 since 1957 and it is one of my choices as a real fine powder.Again though it isn't the same ball game as the slower burning powders.

What it boils down to is that someone put a lot of effort in supplying us some information. If some one wants to duplicate that effort or surpass it and provide us with something equally or more usefull with whatever powder; the stage is yours. Have at it old chap. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Paul K:
Gentleman:
Using fast burning powders in medium to large rifles using cast bullets has been done safely for decades. But doing the same with Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, or what ever with jacketed bullets, in the long run is asking for trouble. IMO

Paul K

Paul:

How is asking for trouble? If it can be used safely in cast bullet applications, what becomes the danger with Jacketed bullets?

The statement of " we are asking for trouble", is that based on personal experience, or just hearsay?

Anyone that has had trouble with the powders you listed, has either had them occur due to operator error or trying to push the envelope way too far for the application. ( read TOO much velocity).

The consistency in Blue Dot when chronographed, has been THE most consistent powder I have ever tried. It has the least deviation spread on velocity of anything I have tried.

I have also found it to cure accuracy problems experienced with several rifles.

INstead of trying to be a rocket scientist, I just do some trial and error by working up my loads and started using what works.

Just at the range yesterday, I was shooting next to a guy who was shooting 223 with a 55 grain FMJ and a load of 26 grains of W 748. I was shooting a load of 13.5 grains of Blue Dot and a 55 grain FMJ.

Even he noticed the difference in the amount of noise increase of his rifle shot, versus mine.
He also noticed the difference in accuracy, that the Blue Dot loads had over his W 748 loads.

I let him shoot a couple of groups using my loads, and I shot several groups with his loads.

IN both rifle the Blue Dot had noticably tighter groups at 100 yds.

He also noticed that my barrel did not heat up at much as his, nowhere near as much. It also cooled down a lot more when we walked out and measured the targets at 100 yds.

So I guess he experience the answer to the question, " why use Blue Dot". I have also been playing with SR 4759, and it shows a lot of promise also.

By the way, my loads of 13.5 grains of blue dot with a 55 grain FMJ yields an MV of about 2950 fps. The W 748 loads with the same bullet and 26 grains, give me about 3200 fps MV. There was no difference of the point of impact at 100 yds at all, and the difference at 200 yds was neglible in my opinion. It is easily minute of sage rat to 250 yds.

As for H4895. I don't care for it. I have never had stellar accuracy out of it on any rifle I have used it in. I know a lot of other powders that beat the pants off of it, in about any caliber I load for. So.... why use it?

Hope that answers a few questions for a few people.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
I've never tried blue dot, but I get 1/2 to 3/4" groups with 45 grains of H4895 in my 300 Win Mag. Has anyone tried Blue Dot in cases as large as the 300 Win?

Yes, I have tested it in the 300 Win Mag also.
It can be made to be like a 30/30 or 300 Savage.
If interested in the data, email me.

I have also tried and tested SR 4759 in that case and I do have a preference for that powder, in that case. Not based on increase accuracy, but due to the bulk of SR 4759. It is much harder to double charge it.

I have tested Blue Dot in the 300 Winchester and the 30/06 down to subsonic levels. The powder is not position sensitive.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
I've never tried blue dot, but I get 1/2 to 3/4" groups with 45 grains of H4895 in my 300 Win Mag. Has anyone tried Blue Dot in cases as large as the 300 Win?

I use 36 grains of BD and 200 grain Ballistic Tip bullets for my 338 Win Mag. I wrote here already about the great performance of this load regarding precision, comfort, killing capability and little destruction of meat. It turned a dust-gathering buffalo gun into a easy to shoot, all-year-round rifle for our hunting conditions here.

I will do further testing with Vihta N110 which is easier to obtain here as BD and already considered a rifle powder. According to QuickLoad, working at the same pressure velocities should be slightly higher.

Also very precise are 11 grain BD or quite similar 13 grain of H110 with 52 grain bullets for the .222 Rem.

Also from an engineering standpoint, a full-pressure and thus, more energy-efficient and cleaner burning load of a fast powder is just more "satisfactory" than a low-pressure load of a slower powder.

The caveats are, as mentioned already, that these reduced loads are NOT reduced in pressure and that a potential double load in a bottlenecked cartridge is not as easy to see as in a cylindrical handgun cartridge.

Gentlemen:
I did some experiments with light pistol bullets and fast burnig powders decades ago with the 350 Rem.Mag and the 35 Whelen.I do not have the data I used any more but as I recall I got excellant accuracy ,though, from time to time I ,had unexplained preasure spikes,blown primers ,locked bolt, etc.I do know that I was working at less than 60% case capacity and that I may have experienced some detonation. Everyone knows about the 2.8 or 3.2gr Bullseye surprise, though it has never been proven in multiple lab experiments and is also one of my favorite loads.I wasn't trying to be a smart ass in my last post,I just don't want to see anyone get hurt.So continue to experiment,but please do so with the utmost caution.

Paul K

Not Blue Dot but same idea.

In the 460 Wby I used 28 grains of Hi Score 700 X with 400 grain Speer flat noses. Velocity was just over 1300 f/s and the load would keep 90% or more the shots in around an inch at 100 yards and the odd shot would open the group to 1.5 to 2 inches.

No fillers used.

Mike

I know that 20 grains blue dot in my 7mm-08 with a sierra 100 grain HP shots one dime sized hole at 100 yards and is murder on yotes without blowing huge holes....you can watch the fur jump as it hits tooooo,,,now thats nice.

hits 4 inches low at 100 from my big game loads.