"Filler" Alert !!

28 April 2001, 06:29

<bobshawn>

"Filler" Alert !!

To All Concerned __

I'm probably the only one who didn't know this, but I'll post it anyway in the event that there are others as poorly informed as myself.

Our reloaderland colleague, '1894', advised us on a different thread that the use of "filler" can result in "chamber ringing". His experience required replacement of a rifle barrel. He referenced an article that described the circumstances. Upon review of the article, I concluded that the circumstances and the results were real. Hence this post.

Sumarizing the article:

DO NOT USE "FILLER" OR "BALLAST" OF ANY SORT IN ANY CARTRIDGE PARTIALLY-FILLED WITH GUNPOWDER UNLESS THAT "FILLER" TOTALLY FILLS THE AIRSPACE BETWEEN THE GUNPOWDER AND THE BASE OF THE BULLET AND SLIGHTLY COMPRESSES THE GUNPOWDER. OTHERWISE, THE BARREL CAN BE RUINED DUE TO "CHAMBER RINGING".

For further information:

ï¿½ Access "GunHoo: Gun Pages Central: Firearms Links" (gunsgunsguns.com).
ï¿½ Type: "The Reloading Bench" (in "Search GunHoo").
ï¿½ Clicking "Search GunHoo" get you a list of "GunHoo Categories".
ï¿½ Select the first on the list: "Ammunition: Reloading".
ï¿½ Scroll to and select: "The Reloading Bench".
ï¿½ Select: "Index of Articles".
ï¿½ Scroll to and select: "Cautions on Chamber Ringing" from "Some Advanced Stuff".

Don't stop using "filler". Just make sure that there's enough "stuff" to fill the airspace.

Good shooting.

Robert

28 April 2001, 16:10

aladin

Bob: check out this url.

http://www.m-s-co.com/sso/articles/article14.html

28 April 2001, 16:24

aladin

quote:
Originally posted by aladin:
Bob: check out this url.

http://www.m-s-co.com/sso/articles/article14.html

Also suggest posting this on the cast forum-- as most fillers are used with cast.

29 April 2001, 03:58

<bobshawn>

aladin __

Thanks for the heads-up. Interesting. I'm using Dacron, cotton, and Styrofoam in my experiments. No ringing (yet). But all of them tend to foul the bore. By simply placing a [close-fitting] disc ["wad"] of ordinary tablet cardboard backing between the filler and the gunpowder, all of that went away. The disc scorches but does not burn. The filler does not melt. Apparently, the cardboard serves as insulation. These are straight wall cases; 45 Colt and 45-70.

Thanks again.

Robert

30 April 2001, 06:53

franke

Aladin,
Thanks, a bunch.
That is the best,by far,article about chamber ringing,that I have ever seen.
I,too have used a lot of fillers,Cream of heat and Kapok,in the begining,and Dacron for the last 30 years.
I never heard of any problems with them,until about 6 years ago.I never worried about them until I got access to the Web.
Most of my fillers went into the 45/70,which seems to be immune to the problem,but I also did a lot of loadng with them in the 30/40,which is bottlenecked.
All of these rounds use cast bullets.
Right now,I am experimenting with a wax wad,which seems to have promise. I'll try it with the cotton filler,in the near future.
keep shooting,
Frank

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01 May 2001, 04:03

<bobshawn>

franke __

You might try ordinary styrofoam in the 45-70. I cut "plugs" using a fired 45-70 case sharpened at the mouth, then cut to length with an Exacto knife. The advantage of styrofoam is that it weighs about 1/10th of the same volume of Dacron or cotton, and compresses to next to nothing prior to the bullet moving. It also retains the "stiffness" advantage of Kapok for holding the powder in place. However, stryofoam does melt. I put a wad of ordinary cardboard (paper tablet backing) between the gunpowder and the bullet. No melting.

Good shooting.

Robert

01 May 2001, 06:20

<Don G>

I tried cotton after reading a similar article. I saw cotton threads left in the barrel, so I quit. Before that I used compressed polyester quilt batting - about as much as I could get, the back of the wad would melt, but I never found one that melted through.

I was doing this in my 416 RemMag, so any other suggestions for bottleneck cases are welcome. Right now I've just upped my loads to a mostly full case and use no wad.

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 04-30-2001).]

02 May 2001, 00:39

Danny Pay

Hi guys
I am planing to load some reduced loads for plinking and I wonder if it is safe to use the cotton to fil the case? caliber is 3030 .
best regads
danny

02 May 2001, 02:20

aladin

If you fellas took a look at the cast board, you'd notice I've been using plastic kitchen wrap for 45/70 loads. I use a piece around four+ inches square and fold into a ball- then insert in the case mouth. Makes a very tight fit. Then seat the bullet-- and this wad STAYS tight to the bullet base, which is where it must be. I am NOT recommending this to anyone-- and think it is NOT applicable to bottleneck cases. It only partially starts to form a ball with the heat-- but shut the minor muzzle leading down I was experiencing completely. Haven't made a final determination as to how it affects accuracy yet.

I am against the use of any fillers-- for these reasons. To use them, the shooter must understand the why's-- and usually they just plop fillers in as an afterthought. They chg expansion ratio's- which affects pressure to be sure, so the loads your copying with pressure data aren't valid. And solid mass fillers [potentially represent a hazard- chamber ringing,] fillers failing to clear the barrel [remote but surely possible] and then possible inaccuracy problems. The solid mass in effect becomes the bullet base- and can produce uneven gas release at the muzzle.

As I stated previously, I only started these experiments due to muzzle leading-- as the bore I'm using is largest at this point. And while I negated the said muzzle leading, I'm yet to determine it's affect on accuracy. Being as I'm using a low pressure 45/70, I'll have the air space to contend with and need something to stay PUT. Have a couple more ideas to try out.

I added the [ ] to that phaze because it's INCOMPLETE-- if a filler gets a run at the bullet base- problems can start. With no air space between bullet base and filler-- the concern becomes if the filler would melt to a liquid state-- and as I understand it that can cause problems. A.

[This message has been edited by aladin (edited 05-02-2001).]

02 May 2001, 07:19

scot

"By simply placing a [close-fitting] disc ["wad"] of ordinary tablet cardboard backing between the filler and the gunpowder..."

Expect to ruin your barrel. The cardboard is your primary projectile and the bullet is the obstruction. Eventually you will ring your barrel. Why not just go to a bulkier powder??? If you tested, you would find the wad loads are not giving as accurate results as without. I assume you are using cast bullets. The wad slams into the base and distorts it. That ruins accuracy. You are heading down a well traveled path that leads no place.

02 May 2001, 07:23

scot

"I am planing to load some reduced loads for plinking and I wonder if it is safe to use the cotton to fil the case? caliber is 3030".

NO !!! It is not. Forget it.

03 May 2001, 03:36

<bobshawn>

scot __

Since the "filler" experiments are continuing, it will be much appreciated if you would advise us of the data upon which you base your opinions; particularly the distortion of the bullet base due to impact by the cardboard "wad".

Your comments are important.

Robert

03 May 2001, 04:35

scot

"Handloader" magazine.

03 May 2001, 04:51

aladin

quote:
Originally posted by scot:
"Handloader" magazine.

It's been some time since I opened a 'Handloader'-- but many articles in yrs past recommended the use of many fillers- including cardboard wads. You'll have to cite the article, author and the jist of what they're saying-- ie, the exact circumstances.

This cites the reason I'm against fillers. Used by unknowing hands- the results can be dangerous-- or just like most all handloading endeavors. The card wad or disc has been used about forever in shooting plain base bullets to seal gases and protect the bullet base-- provided there's no air space for the card to settle.

03 May 2001, 05:23

scot

been quite a while for me too. The article I was refering to was called "Fillers, Curse or Crunch" . It was about 10 years ago. : )..... It scares me that I can remember that but have a hard time locating car keys!!!
"provided there's no air space for the card to settle."
I thought you were ramming the wad against the powder with a space between it and the bullet base?? A wad under the bullet will not cause a dangerious situaton. Do read Dr. Mann's book though. He hates "Oleo" wads and tells why.
On fillers, most everything I have read on the subject is negative. I used them in the past too. Dacron fluf. I never got an accuracy improvement though. Main thing here is to never tamp the fluff against the powder. That gives it a running start before it impacts the bullet base. Just push it in there loosely. Wads as you described would be a worst case sinerio. Have at it if you are having fun. All I am saying is expect to damage your barrel. the rifle won't blow up or anything and barrels are not prohibitively expensive. So, If you are having fun more power to you.

[This message has been edited by scot (edited 05-02-2001).]

03 May 2001, 08:03

Atkinson

Sure has been a lot of double rifles blown up thru the use of fillers, I know that...I'm not sure of the circumstances but I choose not to use them in mine and I don't shoot reduced loads...

I have posted to this effect many times and usually with a challange, so I suppose some get away with it....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com