I have loaded up some new loads for my 30-06 using Sierra 165 GK SPBT and IMR 4895.
I checked a few sources and decided to start at the average minimum load (48.0 grns) and work up five loads (+0.5 grns) to about halfway to average maximum (50.0 grns).
Well, I open up an old reloading handbook, one of those freebies from IMR, and it says a MAXIMUM load of 47.0 grns IMR 4895!
Just this morning I get on IMR's website and it confirms my original notion of 49 min to 52 max, but, I'm still a bit nervous... I don't like to push things and don't really ever care to, so..... Your thoughts???

BTW Rifle is Rem 700

Well in my opinion it's probably ok, but not anywhere near the middle of the road. It's closer to a max load. As long as the bullets aren't to close to the lands they would probably be fine. I don't use a lot of 4895, and have found some really good loads with IMR4350 and H4831/4831sc. Nate

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Well, I open up an old reloading handbook, one of those freebies from IMR, and it says a MAXIMUM load of 47.0 grns IMR 4895

Well my 30yr old Sierra book shows 47.8 grs of 4895. Loadtech calls 48.2grs as 60,000.

Can't tell you what to do. Looking at the pressure data 2grs is adding 4000 so assume 50grs will give you 64,000. While higher than the 06 60,000 limit is is still below the 65,000 270 limit. I would probably fire the first and try it. Then decide what to do.

Like BigNate says I don't see your loads as average minimum working halfway to average Max. If the load line goes from green to yellow to red you ar starting at the end of yellow and well into red.

Check this page... http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/30-06-2005apr03.php It says 52 gr IMR 4895 producing only 57,200 as max load.

I am fairly close to the lands, ie. I set a bullet in case long, chambered it, run die down until it touches the bullet, then set seating die in another 0.030". I don't use any of those devices that measure to the ogive or anything fancy like that so.... no numbers except OAL to the tip is 3.370 with dial calipers.

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Well in my opinion it's probably ok

I would not count on it!
When you use sierra bullets use their load data.. when you use nosler bullets use there load data.
The reason is that the bullets are of diffrent construction.
And will spike at diffrent pressures
I would not advise starting at max and working up. Whats up with that?
Tear them down and start over you may have pressure signs below the max.
Dave

IF you still have some brass & bullets, I'd load three with 46 grains, three with 47 grains, three with 47.5 grains, and fire these first. IF all shoot without causing difficult bolt opening or bright smear marks on the case heads, then I'd try the 48-grain load...... (IF 50 grains is MAX, a starting load 5% below that is 47.5 grains.)

I will load up some reduced rounds and fire this evening, and hopefully try at least the 48 gr charge. IF the 48 gr load is OK, will increasing the load by 0.5 increments be too much? Or should I load a couple at 0.25 increments?

I think I'm gonna hafta go get more bullets if this is the case, maybe even a puller, crap...

The Speer #13 shows 49.5 gr 4895 with a 150 gr bullet and the Nosler #5 has 51.0gr as max. Both are the newest editions from these companies, and doesn`t seem to follow the common thought that that manuals are downloading their data becuse of lawyers.
I have heard in the past, and this seems to help support it, that powders change as new batches are produced and newer data should be followed when ever possible. The same with other components. I wouldn`t worry as you did say you started low and worked up with these. Just keep an eye on them as you go.

Well I haven't exactly "worked up" to them yet. I have them loaded last night, but, haven't fired one yet.
As far as new data is concerned, the IMR website has a 2005 date at the bottom, and my Speer #13 has been around quite a bit longer than that I think. Of course the Speer doesn't even list Sierra's let alone 165 grain with IMR 4895, so....
I've been wanting to get Sierra's newest manual for a while, seems like now is a good time to get it before I screw something else up.

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Of course the Speer doesn't even list Sierra's let alone 165 grain with IMR 4895, so....

Duhhhhhhhhh

I looked at data for the 150 gr, don`t know how I missed the 165gr wgt you gave.

from the latest Sierra (5th edition)

165gr HPBT COL 3.185" or 165 SBT COl 3.330" - 46.8gr IMR4895

168 gr HPBT MatchKing COL 3.285" - 49.0gr IMR4895

I can`t explain the diference in the charges.........

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Originally posted by Ol` Joe:

quote:

Of course the Speer doesn't even list Sierra's let alone 165 grain with IMR 4895, so....

Duhhhhhhhhh

I looked at data for the 150 gr, don`t know how I missed the 165gr wgt you gave.

from the latest Sierra (5th edition)

165gr HPBT COL 3.185" or 165 SBT COl 3.330" - 46.8gr IMR4895

168 gr HPBT MatchKing COL 3.285" - 49.0gr IMR4895

I can`t explain the diference in the charges.........

Those Sierra's listed MAX loads?

I have manuals that show that load over MAX as well as just at MAX. Since you loaded them in .5 Gr. increments just like Joe said just go ahead and watch for your tell tale pressure signs and if you get them stop. That's why using good reloading practices rather than just going to the MAX load is always the smart thing to do.

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Originally posted by hivelosity:

quote:

Well in my opinion it's probably ok

I would not count on it!
When you use sierra bullets use their load data.. when you use nosler bullets use there load data.
The reason is that the bullets are of diffrent construction.
And will spike at diffrent pressures
I would not advise starting at max and working up. Whats up with that?
Tear them down and start over you may have pressure signs below the max.
Dave

Exactly!, Dave. So pull up Sierras web page and check thier data for the bullet he's asking about. Or here
, read it and you'll see that what I said is spot on if not conservative. The page shows the same powder charge being used with a bullet thats heavier( 175gr listed max was 49.5)(correction should be 49gr) . Thing is, I don't know which cases, primers, ect. so like I said, it should be ok, and in reality you could probably load it even hotter. Look at the pressures listed. They were using a 24" barrel with a 1:10 twist, no notation as to it being a tight chamber, but I's suspect a spec chamber.

I agree with you starting at the max and working up isn't a safe approach. That's why I said is was closer to a max, rather than middle of the road. They show a max of 52gr at 57,200 psi. Less powder by four grains should be ok. Nate

Thanks for all of your responses. I do feel a little better about these loads now. I will still load up a couple lighter charges and watch for pressure signs just to be on the safe side.

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but load data with IMR-4895 gets a bit wierd. When I forst started reloading my ammo, my go to load for the 30-06 was 49.0 gr. of IMR-4895, and believe me that was a max load in my rifle with 150 gr. Sierra spitzer flat based bullets. (They didn't call them Pro-hunters back then.) At that time, (Lyman maunual #41, no copyright date.) starting load was 45.0 gr. and the max load was 50.0 gr.and I'd worked up to 49.0 gr. The rifle was a J.C. Higgins Model 50 with FN action. About a year ago, I decided to load up a box just to see what they ahd done velocity-wise. I'd long switched to 180 gr. Sierras as they didn't mangle as much eating meat. Imagime my surprise when I blew a primer. I called it a day and pull the loads down and no, I hadn't screwed up in charging the cases. I did a little research and the 1964 dated Lyman manual #44) shows a strat load of 46.0 gr. and a max load of 51.5 gr.so technically, my load should still have been OK. fast forward to the Lyman #48 manual, copyright 2002 and they show that exact same data as in the 1964 manual. You mean to tell me that in 38 years, Lyman has not retested that data? In 1964, Du Pont was making 4895. Today, a company called IMR is making 4895 and they are using sawdust to make the nitrocellulose rather than the cotton linters that Du Pont used. Basd on my experience in my 30-06 and in a couple of other rifles in other calibers, the current IMR-4895 seems to be somewhat faster burning than the Du pont version.
Think that's bad? After WW-2, when the NRA wass elling off milsurp 4895, a loading data sheet came with each order as 4895, depending on the lot number had a burning rate as fast as 4198 and as slow as 4320, just buy the change in the lot number.
I'm not knocking either H-4895 or IMR-4895, I like them both. However, if I were to use it in the 30-06 for a full power load, I would start with the lowest starting load I could find and very carefully work up.
Currently, if I use the Lyman #48 manual, I first look at whether it says C.U.P. or P.S.I. for the load data. If it says C.U.P., I'm damn careful when using the data in working up a load. It just may have been more than 30 years since they retested that data.
FWIW, I reworked that load back up from the 46.0 gr. and at 45.5 gr. I started to get pressure signs that I was not comfortable with.
Now, I just use that powder for my cast bullet shooting.
Paul B.

If theres one thing manufacturer's don't seem to agree on, it's powder charges. But all are usually in the ball game. If I'm unsure, I like to load up one round each in 1/2gr increments from the min load and pressure test befor any load developement.

from sierras web
165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR 4895 .308" 3.300" 49.0 2768 50,500 PSI 52.0 2888 57,200 PSI
I stand corrected<..> all my data shows 47.5 to 48 as a max load.
Dave

Paul your experiences are relevant! It proves the powders can and do change burn rate over time. This may be due to source or the actual age of the powder I'm told. Though I'm still on the same 8# can, and have not noticed it changing, I suppose if it lasts long enough it could. Mine was of DuPont origin.

The military pull downs can vary and I have seen a shift in the burn rate between earlier cans of RL22.

It never hurts to reference your personal load notes for a given powder and compare them to the manual. I've seen the same mild load in one rifle be near top end in another rifle. The standard rule of thumb has been to back off 10% on bigger cases and work up. I don't always follow this exactly either. Reduced loads can be as dangerous as hot ones. Nate

Was 4895 a surplus powder to start? I know when I switched from surplus 4831 to H4831 not only did the price go way up but I had to change my loads as well.

Charlie: Manuals provide useful information. I am just surprised that 47.0 grains IMR 4895 is listed as max. Now my experience is almost 100% with match bullets and match barrels. My experience with IMR 4895 is that I would not hesitate to put 47.0 grs behind a 165 grain bullet because I have shot thousands of 168’s with 47.0 grs of IMR 4895. Yes the bullets are different, but not that much different. I recommend you use a chronograph in developing loads in the 30-06. I believe a good safe load pushes a 168ish grain bullet around 2700 fps. I have fired enough of this load in 100 F weather in my match rifles without pressure problems that I am very confident it is a good safe load. I have provided chronograph data from two different rifles. One was using AA2495 which has given me the same velocity for the same charge as 4895. Accurate Arms made a stupid marketing mistake labeling their copy of 4895 as 2495. Shoots the same. If you notice I have 175 Sierra Match data in a Ruger #1 with the same load and did not have any problems. I think this is a slow barrel on this rifle. I should have gotten about 2600 fps. I have shot at least 1000 of 175 Sierra’s with 47.0 grains IMR 4895 in my competition rifle, found the load was accurate and not hard on the cases or rifle.

Your lighter bullet should give you no problems with this load.

M1 Garand Douglas Barrel 1:10 twist

168 Sierra Match 47.0 grs AA2495 wtd WLR FC Cases OAL 3.30"
5 May 00 T =82°F


Ave Vel = 2632
Std Dev = 15
ES 50
Low 2616
High 2666



Ruger #1

175 Sierra Match 47.0 IMR 4895 W/W Fed210S
19-Oct-04 T = 75 ° F OAL3.3 excellent accuracy
Ave Vel = 2535
Std Dev = 29
ES 92
Low 2487
High 2579
N = 11

Well, after work yesterday afternoon, i stopped by the gun shop and picked up another pound of powder and box of bullets. I went home and RE-started my work up from 47.0 gr. I also loaded two additional rounds up for the ones I already had with new powder and bullets; just to be on the safe side.

Seems like the evening took forever as I had to let the barrel cool so many times, but, I shot every single round loaded, all the way up to 50.0 grn, without a hitch. Not one sign of pressure. I just wanted to see if I would @ 50.0 grn, but I found what I was looking for at 48.5 grn.

All my previous loads with 165 Sierra's @ 200 yds could be beat with a handful of corn, but, last night, that 48.5 grn load put 4 shots under a half dollar (I pulled 1 shot) at 200 yards.

Yes I know it was only one group, but, Hey! I'm excited. Finally I have a good load to tinker with

I don't think you are pushing things much.
You don't say what kind of rifle you are shooting.
One thing I keep in mind when shooting a strong modern 30,06 is that the sammi preasure specs on the 06 are a we bit low compared to a 270 or a 25,06 in difference to early 1903 springfields.
If your shooting a good modern rifle it highly unlikly a printed load will give you a disaster. But like others have said load a few a grain or 2 lower and shoot them first.
I am real carfull with my old (1905) springfield 03, as I work up loads. (its a .257 Roberts) But for you to really mess up with a 700 or an FN, you would have to somthing prety crazy.
Never used 4895, but I second IMR-4350, but RL-19 is good also. ...tj3006