I recently purchased a new .243 Winchester. Loaded up some NEW Winchester brass for it and went to the range. Load was a "suggested load" All chambered fine and shot fine with absolutely no signs of pressure.

Problems started when I went to reload these cases fired ONLY in this gun.

1. First odd thing I noted was the necks on this once fired brass was still so tight I could not push a bullet into them...PRIOR to resizing!

2. After full length sizing and seating the bullets, the loaded ammunition chambers with some difficulty. Have to force bolt closed.

What the hell is going on? I've looked at the cases for signs of a rub or conflict somewhere. Nothing. I have double checked my seating depth and inspected the bullets after chambering. Nothing. Seating depth is correct. But it feels like SOMETHING is binding somewhere...I just can't find it? My reloading dies are RCBS.

Could I just have such a damn tight chamber that I'm going to have to get a set of small base dies to solve this issue?

Anyone with any ideas I'm not thinking of, please let me know. I'm even wondering if this is fairly normal for .243 and turning the necks down a tab might be necessary. (I hope not!) I had about as soon trade the rifle off as get into that crap.

Color me purplexed.

Hello Pecos,

Sounds pretty strange to me, - something isn't right. A bullet should drop down the neck on once fired brass?... I wouldn't think that you should need to turn necks on factory chambered guns, unless they were marked on the barrel as tight-necked chamber!

Do fired brass and sized brass chamber without binding, and just bind with the bullet seated? Why not the original batch of loads????

If you're going to keep it, a chamber cast should help you sort it out. I wouldn't want to fire it until it's "fixed"!

Good luck, Bill

Pecos, I think that Mondele scoured his legions of native help for a witch doctor and put a hex on your reloading bench. Have your presses blessed and all will be well......

My 243 is the biggest bear in the world to load for also. It has been checked by three smiths. If it wasn't a legitimate half inch rifle with factory crap it would be out the door.

Ok Carnivore...so what the devil is the problem with these devils to reload them? I've got a pretty limited tolerance for such games. Either I'm doing something wrong after only 46 years of reloading, or there is something funny with the gun. And I DO NOT send guns back to the factory. I send them to the "Nacker Yard."

Pecos,

How did you get those bullets into the cases the FIRST time? Are you telling us that firing SHRUNK the necks? That ain't from a tight neck. Same bullets?

BTW, make sure your bolt lugs are [very sparingly] lubed.

I was wondering if maybe the necks were just long enough they were getting forced into the rifling a little bit making the end of the neck tighten down a little bit. Have you tried to shorten your brass a little below 2.035"? On my win M 70 ( wish i knew proper names of parts) the part of the bolt that cams the firing pin back was getting badly gouged by the firing mech causing a really hard bolt close but i doubt that is your problem.

ever think about a 243 AI??

Mark

Markus, the first thing I did prior to even starting to reload these cases was to mike them to see if the necks had grown. (Somewhere I have it in my head that the .243 is bad about stretching necks.) Anyway, after this initial firing, the case neck length was the same as what it was new out of the box. So I don't have a long neck problem.

Thanks guys for trying to help me puzzle this out. I'll put the old micrometer to everything and see if I can find a clue. So far all I can think of is this rifle has got one VERY tight neck or an extra small base. It seems to me if my neck in the chamber were this tight my pressures at firing should be going thru the roof and they are not. Pressures are fine. Primers not even well flattened and everything extracts perfectly.

I have only ever know ONE bolt action rifle in my life that wouldn't chamber it's own empties...even when full length resized!

More later. Stay tuned.

I could not find in your post that you ever tried a bullet in a fired case. If it will not enter freely the case necks are too thick for your chamber. It may be that you are belling the shoulders slightly. To check this try chambering a case with out the bullet seated. If it goes then you have elimated the case. Pete

OK Everyone, I've gone over my cases with the old mike-o-meter and discovered EVERYTHING is in specs.

What I HAVE found and I think is getting closer to the problem is on the cases that are difficult to chamber (in their own rifle) show bright areas on the base of the brass. Also I've noticed the bolt face is pretty rough.

I'm thinking the problem is in the bolt face being possible misaligned, i.e. not square with the chamber.

The extractor is snug over the rim of all the cases, but it does feed over them all as it should. The problem occurs when you go to close the bolt and thus ROTATE the bolt behind the case.

Anyone ever heard of a misaligned bolt face? <Damn I hate problems like this that should never have happened to begin with!>

Perhaps the easiest method of finding the binding problem is to make a chamber cast. Brownell's sells Cerrosafe for about $15 USD, give or take a few bucks, and it lasts forever. Just use a clean pot and ladle or a soup can cut in half with a spout bent into it. If your wife isn't looking, you can use the kitchen stove for heat and vise-grips for the handle.
If you've never done it before, it looks kind of scary to be pouring "lead" into the chamber of a bazillion dollar rifle, but errors can be corrected with a hair dryer, if necessary. If you need a warm fuzzy as a confidence builder, make a chamber cast of your sizing die first. Measure it as well and then make the comparative decision.
Please read the paper that comes with CerroSafe and watch the timer.
Regards,
Ed

Thanks, Ed. That would be the correct and logical thing to do but tonight I'm just really in the mood to hit it with a hammer and make the SOB "do me right!" Besides I ain't got none of that fancy stuff.

However, now that I think of it, I'd like to pour it into the mouth of my wife's dogs and make a nice cast of the inside of their mouths. hee,hee,hee. That would shut their barking asses up...at least till I took the cast out.

Pecos, I wish I could help ya'. My 243 won't chamber it's own fired empties. Two chamber casts, headspaced, go no go. It doesn't friggin matter every one draws a blank and frankly I am getting tired of paying gunsmiths to tell me that the condition is normal, that'll be $94 dollars please. The damn thing would already be a 9.3 if I could find the right bottom metal and it didn't shoot so well.

Pecos 45

I had a similar problem on a 303 Brit, and it took me a while to figure it out.

From the information you gave, it seems as if new cases chamber without any problems. I would think that that rules out a problem with the bolt head.

I would suggest you do the following checks :

Take new unfired cases and check that they are dimensionaly correct. Chamber some of them to make sure there are no problems. Take a marking pen and colour some of them black. Rechamber and then inspect them for abrasion marks.

Load some and do the same. If you crimp your bullets, you might find that you are actaully bulging the shoulder - but you will be able to see that on the inked cartridges.

Fire them, and repeat the above test.

Now resize them, and repeat the above test. This is where I found my problem. The 303 headspaces on the case rim but I found that my dies did not set the shoulder back far enough when full length resizing. The solution was to shorten the resizing die a bit, so that the case could go in deeper.

Now reload them, and repeat the above.

If you still don't find the problem - dump the rifle.

Good luck

Johan

Thanks, Johan. I can see where your solution might reveal the problem. I am NOT crimping the bullet at all so no bulge there. The only abrasion marks I can find on the cases that are giving me trouble is on the case HEAD. The bolt FACE is rough as hell and looks like it was machined with a pocket knife...but the brass DOES go under the extractor etc. So even though the bolt face is not smooth as a baby's ass, I think it's functional.

AND, Johan, if indeed the problem is as YOU suggest, this would in fact set in motion the conflict between the cases and the bolt face as the bolt is having to partially resize the case each time it chambers.

Carnivore, I hope you're reading this as well. Johan may have hit on your problem as well.

These .243 dies that I have are RCBS and SHOULD be fine...but I don't know that. I bought them from a "friend" and have never had a .243 since I got these dies. If they are just a little long and flakey and my rifle's chamber is tight as hell...then I can understand where I've got a problem.

Will explore this area. Thanks again, Johan!

[ 07-09-2002, 15:51: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Pecos,

As I understand it, you have no problem with your loads from new brass, and you have a problem with the same loads, bullets & all, with once-fired brass.

Is it possible that the neck in the rifle chamber is not co-axial with the rest of the chamber?

If you still feel like throwing good cases after bad, mark a few cases on the head for orientation, fire them all the same way, and see if there is an orientation that will let you rechamber them, first unloaded, then loaded.

Or just check some once-fired cases for runout.

??? Good luck!

Will do Recono. You guys have helped me come up with a couple of possibilities. Right now I'm waiting for a chance to go shoot up some of what I have loaded. I reloaded every one of my fired cases before I knew I had a problem, so at the moment I don't have any fired brass on hand to compare things with.

Thanks again everyone. P45

Pecos, after reading some of these responses I got on the 243 for a while. I think my chamber could be out of round. My 243 brass is tight after firing also. It is not possible to drop a bullet into a fired case. It can be forced though. I neck sized some brass and then full length sized some brass. The neck sized brass chambers HARD, depending on the orientation. Full length sized are easy to chamber. Even partial sizing is fairly easy. What would make the case body swell and leave everything else dimensionally stable. That is the $300 question.

Carnivore

It sounds as if you might have a slight headspace problem, or if the necks of the fired are too long or thick.

Remember that if you only neck size your cases, you are not setting the shoulder back as you would when full length resizing. You then have to push the shoulder back with the bolt when you chamber the case. This sounds like your problem, as you state that full length resized cases chamber without difficulty.

If you colour your cartridges as I suggested in a previous post, you will soon see where the problem is. I use a felt tipped black permanent marker pen on the whole cartridge.

Good luck with the search.

Johan

P45 -

Even if you can't figure out exactly what is causing the problem, if you REALLY like the rifle, I'd consider having the barrel set back and re-chambered (properly) before deep-sixing it. Some of the work (supposedly QC'ed) that comes out of the factories these days is really scary. A good smith will fix you up pretty quick.

R-WEST

Pecos, I had this happen with my brother's FN Mauser 243 and I about pulled my hair out trying to figure it out. I finally relented and bought a set of small base dies and the problem went away. Pretty simple fix, so you have two options- either have the chamber cleaned up with a proper finish reamer by your gunsmith or buy the small base dies. Price is probably about the same, but having the chamber recut means you won't have to worry about resizing problem ever again and it will also clean up the throat if that is the problem. Let us know how it comes out- Sheister

[ 07-11-2002, 23:38: Message edited by: Sheister ]

Some light loads will not let a bullet be pushed into a fired case. The brass springs back after firing. Measure the dia. of a loaded round at the neck. After firing measure the neck again.This may tell u something. The maximun dia. is .276" for a loaded round , measured at the neck.A good target chamber should let the fired brass measure no bigger than .277" after spring back.Make sure when full length sizing , the shell holder is in full contact with the die. You may have a bad die. 243winxb

I have a similar problem with my Smith and Wesson 1500 in 243. Depends on the reloads, they are tight as hell. In fact i have managed to get some stuck on occasion. One friend of mine wanted me to try some new bullets his M70 was doing great with. He fully resized some brass and loaded up some starting loads to see if my gun liked it. Stuck... wasnt even close to closing. It seems to depend on the brass, that was federal nickel plated. If i am not mistaken, some reloaded PMC factory brass caused me a hassle too. The gun shoots real good, but its a pain sometimes.

R-West...

"A good smith will fix you up pretty quick.".

HA!, most, including some with big names, are dorks... and no matter how simple it is, it will cost you more than it's worth, and they may not solve the problem.

Pecos45...

This is actually not an uncommon problem. The chamber probably has a tighter neck than average (but not a "Tight neck" in the technical sense)... I have several rifles that have what is called a "minimum factory" neck. They are a few thou over the loaded round OD of the neck. They do NOT accept a bullet after firing, but do not present any danger whatsoever, in fact it is an advantage, because the case necks will last forever.

Also... it is common for push-feed actions like the Rem M700 to ding the side of the case mouth aganst the inside ot the action, on the way out, and this will prevent the bullet from entering the case.

As to the tight closing of the bolt... cases with large shoulder areas, fired in minimum chanbers, can fill the chamber, and then be a bit tight to rechamber again... Sinclair Int, makes "Shoulder bump" dies to solve this.
I have this same "problem" with a .22-250, a 6mmBR, and pay it no mind.

Measure the OD of the neck on a fired case, and then on a loaded case... if the fired case is larger by a 3 or more thou, you have nothing to worry about.

CatShooter.

Hello Pecos - had something similar after firing some hot (like absolutely flattened primers, shiny mark over the extractor cutout etc.) in my 8x68. Turned out that the brass had flowed down the barrel and needed to be trimmed back about 0.015". Backed off on the load and matters improved.

cheers edi

Thanks all. I have decided all my troubles were the result of several things. First, I have an extremely tight chamber, probably cut on the last days of a reamer's life. Secondly, I have a set of questionable USED RCBS dies I acquired.
The only thing I did differently reloading these cases the first time was to use some "Imperial Sizing Lube"...which I was not that impressed with. It seems to have about half the lubricating qualities of the instant spray on lube.

I miked EVERYTHING with cases before and after and at EACH stage in the reloading process...and the second time around even made sure my rifle would chamber the sized empty cases. It did. Just swallowed them. So, I seated the bullet and tried again. No problem. They chamber fine.

Bottom line between the reload #1 group (which chambered with difficulty) and reload #2 group (which chamber fine) is my choice of case lubes! I am loading the same bullet and powder charge as before. Seating to the same depth. ONLY the lube has changed.

It would appear the sizing wax was causing just enough stress, strain and stretch on the brass that the cases were not really being sized very well. With a better, slicker lube, all is happy.

Moral to this story is I'll never use Imperial Sizing Wax again. It was an experiment for me and one I won't repeat. The stuff works, but there are a LOT better case lubes on the market. This fact comes painfully home to haunt you when you have a minimum chamber to begin with.

Again, thanks to all you guys who jumped in to help me figure this out. Jim