"Concerning your rifle, before you go out and purchase a new scope, be sure to check the "stock". I'm not a fan of the Pre-64 M70s, so consider my input in that respect."

This scope requires high rings. Other scopes can use lower rings.

The stock is a "classic" done in fancy English walnut by me. The drop is about as minimal as can be made in the style. In other words the cocking piece just clears the comb and the drop at heal is as little as I could put and still have a good looking rifle. It looks a lot like Dakota's stocks. I did add skeliton grip cap, butplate, ebony forend tip, and 26TPI checkering. The barrel is a free floated Pac-Nor match grade. It is one of those rare projects that came out right. I can not find any fault in the design or workmanship. I am a very harsh critic of myself. It is an awfully nice looking rifle and it shoots little tiny groups.

Yesterday afternoon I killed a buck. I was using a pre '64 M-70 in 25-06 with a Redfield 3 x 9 with a large objective. First, the large objective scope did not fit the scabbard right and was a little too snug at the bell. I think that tweaked the scope and caused the rifle to shoot high, more on that later. Second, 100 gr. Nosler BT at 3200 fps. The deer here are small, about 125 lbs. That should be plenty of bullet, right? Well I got a shot at maybe 50 yards, dead rest, and the deer lying under a tree looking straight at me. I put the crosshairs on the white spot of the neck and squeezed it off. Deer just lies down. Well... as it turns out, the rifle shot about a foot high, shot him in the nose. The results were grizzly to say the least. It got worse. The bullet did not penetrate and did not kill. He got up and tried to run away. The scope was still on 9X, couldn't see jack at 10 feet. Rifle comes down, scope gets played with, goes back up and my partner shoots deer in the back strap. All in all an ugly experience that really bothers me. I don't want to ever repeat this one.



I know I have defended BT bullets in the past but no more. I realize the load combo was more suited to distant shooting but to fail to kill under these circumstances is inexcusable. If I had been shooting a 120 gr. partition I am SURE the result would have been different even with the poor shot placement and high velocity. Even better would be my Pre '64 Feather weight .308 Win.



At this point I am doubting the value of high velocity in deer hunting. Bullet performance becomes critical. At close range you get explosive expansion with lots of ruined meat and poor penetration. You can go to bullets that don't expand as much but at long ranges you may not get enough expansion. I have never pulled off the 400 yard shots, on big game, consistently. High velocity seems fine on varmints but on deer, it seems to to be a detrement. I can shoot but, variables in the real world of hunting stacks the deck against long range reliable kills. So why am I toting a 400 yard zapper? Why not use a big slow bullet and keep ranges shorter? Maybe that 308 with a 165 or even 180 gr. mass production bullet at modest velocity? Guarenteed penetration, expansion and less hamburger. I guess I am promoting a 300 yard rifle instead of a 400 yard rifle. Sounds almost absurd when you boil it down to that simplicity.



The scope, this is not the first time to have a close shot screwed up by a variable power scope. The large objective has done nothing positive. I don't care about night time shooting, that is illegal here. The bell adds height that makes the cheek weld feel odd. The rig does not fit in the scabbard properly with that scope. I am attracted to gadgetry but enough is enough, time to grow up and quit screwing around. I think I will get a Leupold straight 4X.



Hope my story will stimulate some thought on how we approach deer rifles and the loads we shoot in them. Good hunting.

Sounds like your problem (or problems) on that hunt were far more than bullet problems. Seems like you chalked it all up to NBTs for something to blame.

I believe you would have had the same results regardless of the Bullet.

You can't say this problem was from NBTs. I have seen different bullet makes glance off the skulls of amimals when shot straight on.

Why were you shooting for the neck? I have seen alot of folks lose deer because they tried neck shots or head shots and just wounded animals. Ive seen deer jaws blown off twice and the deer was still alive but, suffering. I've seen some neck shots that were terrible, the bullet didn't contact the spine on two occasions and both times the deer fell, laid a moment, got up, and ran off (a instantaneous paralyzation).

Go for the vitals, Much less room for error and alot more ethical.

Oh well, here we go again.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Thanks guys for not being too harsh. I feel pretty bad about the whole thing. I own the scabbard. It just fits some of my other rifles better. I guess I am a slow learner. I ran some trajectory calculations today. Depends on how you crunch the numbers but, it looks like by subsitiuting a moderate 180 gr .308 load and comparing to my zippy 25-06 load I gain 75 yards before hold over becomes an issue. that 75 yards is way out there where shooting at all may not be terribly ehtical for me.
I started hunting with a .243, then .257 Bob, a 250 Sav, then settled on the 30-06 for about 15 years. Intersperced were muzzleloaders, bows, and 45-70s. Just this year I tried the 25-06. Never tried a really fast small bore. I guess I forgot the lessons of my past. It is my impression that when you get out of the thoerhetical rhelm very high velocity zappers do not pan out in the real world hunting field. Of course, one shot does not prove anything. Even so, I do think I want to stack the deck more in favor of clean kills and less hamburger. If I pass up a few shots at 400 yards I am Ok with that. Most of the time you can get closer anyway. Right now that sure looks like my .308 Featherweight is going to get a straight 4x scope. That rig or a close variant may last me for the rest of my life. I certainly don't need any repeat performances.

100 BT at 3200 fps+ from a 25-06 is a varmint load, not a big game load. A 115 BT at a modest 2900 fps will serve you much better.

If I were you I'd be mad at the scope. Lower power variables are almost always better for hunting - a 1.5-4.5x, 2-7x, or 2.5-8x are more than you'll ever need to cleanly hit a big game animal at any sane range. IMHO, many folks are too concerned about magnification and not conerned enough about field of view.

Well Scot, you've learned a valuable lesson, unfortunately @ the animals exp. I won't hunt w/ a NBT because it isn't an all range, any angle bullet. I also like bigger caliber so my min. deer/antelope round is a .25 w/ good bullets. I also agree, you don't really need a 50mm obj. on your hunting rifles, I like 32mm as a max. My choice, the exc. Leup. VXIII 2.5x8. Good hunting!

You said you couldn't find the deer in your scope after it got up because you had the scope cranked up to 9X. Didn't that first shot at it laying down at 50 yards seem a little unusual?

Not to point out any faults of yours, as I found this out the hard way also- but Nosler BT's in 25 caliber aren't designed as big game bullets IIRC. However, I've used Nosler Partitions, Hornady Interlocks, and Speers for deer hunting in my 25-06 and had lots of meat damage with all of them when I hit shoulders. Seems the weights don't seem to matter all that much either, as I've used everything from 100 to 120 grains- all pretty much with the same results.



Distance seemed to make a difference, as I've shot deer with this round from 40 yards to close to 400 and the longer shots always seem to be more effective and less meat damage. Just my opinion, as this is way too small a sample to be scientifically viable, but I'm thinking a slower round in .25 would get the job done better if you're shooting in areas you don't need the extra range. Maybe a 250 Savage or something along that line?

So why did I just build a 25-284? Guess I'm a slow learner, but in my part of the country the 400 yard shots come up as often as the 50 yard shots, so I like to be prepared. I know, lousy excuse, but it's the only one I can come up with on short notice and I'm sticking to it! -



As to the scabbard problem with your scope- I have a few buddies who go on guided trips on horseback and to a man they all say it is a good idea to get your own scabbard and set your scoped rifle in it so it fits your rifle properly- then take it along with you on the hunt so you know you have a properly fitted scabbard and it may eliminate some scope problems. However, with a 50mm Objective all bets are off. I'm with the fellow above, the 2.5x 8x 32 is an awesome scope for your needs- Bob

I applaud you for sharing your learning experience. (just today there was an idiot on another forum wondering if a .223 50 grain a-max was a tough enough bullet to make it to the brain of deer that he was planning on shooting at 300 yds.) AND to top that off there are people saying YES!

I live in Wisconsin and most of our shooting is under 100 yds. Just last year I equipped a .308 blr with a 1x3 weaver. This scope is AWSOME!! It is lightweight at about 9oz's and swings so fast you don't have to close an eye. It is clearer in dark weather than my 1.5-5 varixIII leupolds. I liked it so much I put some of my other higher powered scopes on e-bay and got 2 more weavers. After 15 years of hunting I'm putting away the higher speed bolt action rifles and using this .308 with good old interlocks. All hunting is now going to be done at 1 or 1.5x unless I really think I need to dial up to the whopping 3x setting. By the way even with just 3x and the heavy trigger pull of the rifle I can still shoot 1.25" (5shot) groups at 100yds.

I have only killed about 50 or 60 whitetails from 100 - 263 lbs. so my experience may be limited compared to others. I have come to rely on hornady interlocks and sierra pro hunters at intermediate velocity for the cartridge used with intermediate to heavy -for-caliber bullets. I have had less meat damage on lung and shoulder shots with this approach. Even with a 338 WM at medium velocity there was less meat damage than a 150 gr. '06 at 2900 fps. I realize every situation is different but these are cumulative results over the last 5-6 yrs. Ranges have been from 16 feet to 173 yds (laser rangefinder). I hunt mostly for meat so occasionally like a neck shot if it's do-able. I don't specifically trophy hunt although I sure won't pass up a nice head. Saw a NBT do only superficial destructive damage on the shoulder of a 125 lb doe at a range of approximately 45 yds. with little blood trail to follow up - went about 150 yds after that shot and needed the cuop-de gras when found. Just observations, not judgments. YMMV.

Scot,
Don't feel too bad. I would like to commend you for talking so frankly on this forum about what happened. We all find out what doesn't work in life by having something bad happen. I am still haunted by a doe that I shot too far back too late in the day. The coyotes got to her before I did.
Nothing the matter with your shot selection given the circumstances.
The take home messages, which you have correctly identified, are:
Use a stout bullet.
Get a smaller, fixed four power scope (or leave the variable on 3-4x, and adjust only to take a shot at longer range).
Thank you for sharing,
JCN

Scot, sorry about the tough experience,as others said at least you were honest and trying to assess what can eliminate future episodes. The bullet you are shooting did what it was supposed to do, it is not a big game round--says so right in the nosler manual, it is a round designed to initiate explosive upset at impact. If you can't get into your scope (it's up to high for your desired fit/ cheek weld) I think you're on the right track looking to get a smaller objective--plus your scabbard issue. Otherwise you could have your scope on a lower power, obviously you can't crank up the power on a fixed, but the shot you were looking to execute-- would that have been OK with the 4x? just throwing out some thoughts. I've seen a lot of deer shot with a 25.06 and killed quickly, but nothing but old school with a heavier bullet behind the shoulder. Good luck getting your rig sorted out, and good hunting to you.
Regards, Don.

Scot,

I still swear by a Ballistic Tip, but at over 2800 fps they act like a varmint bullet more than a hunting bullet./

I lost 10 pounds of hamburger from the last deer I hit with a ballistic tip with MV of 3350 fps, but it was shot at 300 yds.
WENT DOWN INSTANTLY, but penetrated completely thru the deer.

I would not blame the bullet as much as the velocity it is moving at from the muzzle.

As far as the scope problems that is another issue.
I never have had to deal with scabbards, and also don't carry 50mm objectives in the field. 40 mm is about as big as I go.

My preference is 36mm max. and also like Fixed power scopes the best.

But guys like me don't see a need for magnums or big horse power cartridges also.

I agree with you on the slow round nose bullets in any caliber, those things just plain work. Unfortunately all the guys are wanting Premium bullets and aren't buying round nosed bullets so they are slowly canning all the good ones.

Guess to many guys think a premium bullet makes them a better hunter.

Good luck on it,
seafire

Great stuff all I appreciate it.

Nosler says,

"1. The Ballistic Tip� Hunting bullet's polycarbonate tip resists deformation in the magazine and initiates expansion upon impact.

2. Fully tapered jacket and special lead alloy core allows controlled expansion and optimum weight retention at all practical velocity levels.

3. Heavy jacket base acts as a platform for large diameter mushroom.

4. Ballistically engineered Solid Base� boat tail configuration combines with the streamlined polycarbonate tip for extreme long range performance.

"For long range deer and antelope work, the Ballistic Tip has become THE BULLET."

J.D. Jones"

They sure sound like it is intended for 125-pound deer. That may be true but, I can't carry two rifles, one for close and one for far. What are you supposed to do, run a couple of hundred yards away from the 50 yard deer before you shoot?? It might have worked fine at 200 yards, or more, but close up we have a different situation. I have killed deer with BTs in 30-06, 308 and 7mm magnum. They worked fine in all of those. I think the difference is better sectional denisty and simply more mass. They were also 300 or more fps. slower in all of those except the 7mm but, I never made a bad hit with that rifle. I used the old "solid base" Noslers in 257 Bob. It worked well too. I now think, as others pointed out, that the 100 gr. just isn't up to the task if pushed too fast. I now think that I was exceeding the limit of that bullets performance envelope. If you go too fast and don't have the bullet length to peel back and act as a brake you are asking for it to simply explode. If we had the same bullet design and diameter but say 140 gr. some of the bullet shank would be more likely to survive and push through.

Anyway I think if I ever use this rifle on big game again I will be looking at 120 gr. partitions, or a simmilar tough shank bullet. A little longer and a little slower.

Hey, I found a Leupold "Mountaineer" 4x in my junk tonight. I know it is old but, were these reliable and tough scopes? It is very clear and fits in the scabbard nicely.

"Seems like you chalked it all up to NBTs for something to blame."



I may have come off as too harsh on the NBT bulltes. It was a serise of errors and bad luck. No blame being on anyone but me and my poor choices. It bet many of the run of the mill 100 gr. 25 cal bullets could have done the same. I really question the small fast bullet concept.



"I believe you would have had the same results regardless of the Bullet."



The bullet did not bounce off, it took his face off. Like he bit a hand grenade. Still, it did not get into the brain.



Why were you shooting for the neck?



I wanted to bring home clean meat. At 50 yards there should be no way to miss, that is if your rifle is still zeroed. Second the chest was obscured, he was laying down. Neck shots are very close to 100% on these little deer.

Scot,

Have you thought about using the 115 grners? They have a better SD and at a MV of around 3000 they should give you what you are looking for.

I don't think you should give up on the 25-06, I have seen a similar incident happen w/ a 30-06(Finishing shot to the head, Blew the snout off and the deer had to be shot again).

A fellow shooter and I were talkin' last night about how bad it makes you feel when the animal has to suffer.

I had scope problems on a 30-06 about 10 years ago and I hit a doe through the back straps. She fell at impact but, when I got to her, she stood up and I had to put a finishing round into her.

If your scope wouldn't have malfunctioned, none of this would have happened. That's just part of it I guess, if you stay in the woods long enough, something's going to fail at some point.

Good Luck!

Reloader

The good new about Leupold is that they have a large, friendly, well experienced service and parts department. That is also the bad news. I have a lot of them. Every now and then one needs to be repaired. Three weeks later and I'm ready to rock.
Great post, and you are a courageous poster, btw.
JCN

2-7x33 Leupolds.............Yeah I have one of those on my Pre 64 FW in 308. It is a real nice rig.

It has been rebuilt once by Leupold. I found out I had a problem when it was on my Rem 722 in 257 Roberts. I had a gimmie shot on a monster buck. I laid the cross hairs on his ribs and let fly. He jumped up and took off. I told my Dad we got him, lets go find him. Next thing we knew he was high tailing it at about 500 yards.

POed at the obviously screwed up rifle I bought another. A M-700 in 30-06. Strapped my trusty scope to it and tried to sight in. Turns out the scope was the problem. Leupold fixed it for free.

One of the other guys at the camp killed that buck a couple of weeks later. Biggest one he ever got. It now hangs over his fire place.

Naw Seafire,
He's just an old fart like you (and me).
JCN

Frontlander:

I like your tastes in scopes and equipment!

Your a good man evidently, with astute sense about quality and what works!

Cheers
seafire

Scot,

While guiding last fall, my client shot 3 deer and 1 antelope with his Model 70 (push-feed) featherweight 257 Roberts. Load was the 100 gr. Ballistic Tip at around 3000 fps. The antelope, a good muley buck, and a muley doe, were all one shot kills, textbook behind the shoulder shots, ranges 200-250 yards. The third deer was a little whitetail doe at around 75 yards. I was watching through a spotting scope and saw the bullet blow hair off of the doe's chest, dead center. She whirled and ran into the nastiest thicket of brush and cat tails this side of the Mississippi. We found a few faint drops of blood and some hair. No deer. So don't feel too bad. I learned a lot that day and so did my client. He felt horrible about losing that deer but I bet you dollars to donuts he won't try a frontal shot with a 100 gr. Ballistic Tip anytime soon. I don't think that bullet is an inherently bad bullet, it just demands that one wait for a good broadside shot.

As far as scopes go, if it don't fit into a scabbard, it doesn't belong on my gun. I use 2-7x33 Leupolds (my favorite), 3-9x40 Leupold VariX-IIs, and my pet pre-64 M70 .30-06 wears an ancient steel tube Weaver K-4. My variables are all set on 4x. If I feel the need for more magnification I can turn it up, but then it goes right back to 4. Damn near every client who shows up here to hunt has their scope cranked up to such a high magnification that they can't find game when we jump them close. I've personally never found 4x to be lacking in precision and I've used it on deer and antelope out to 350 yards or so.

So don't get too down. The only bad mistake is one that you don't learn from.