I don't shoot enough. Not nearly. I know 30-30s about as cheap a shells as you can buy, but 14 a box is still too much. I have a new (new to me) winchester 94, I've probably put less than 40 shots through. I'm looking for the absolute cheapest (to the cent) load (primer, powder, and bullets) I can load. I'll have brass. It will be strictly for practicing and plinking and maybe shooting rabbits or something, so I dont care if I have an 8" group at 100yards. If casting my own bullets is cheaper, I'm open to that, but thats another project I'd prefer not to get into. I'm trying to get into reloading, and a really cheap load would be a great starting point. Thanks ahead for all input.
Krueger

Buy a reloading manual as a start.

"Buy a reloading manual as a start"

+1

Find one of these, Lee Challenger breech lock kits
Then keep your eye out for online sales from places like Grafs.com, Midway, and Widener's.

Casting and reloading require a big initial investment. If you are only going to shoot a few rounds a year, find a sale and buy a bunch of the same lot of ammo. Unless you get a great deal primers and powder will probably be cheaper locally due to the HazMat fee for shipping.

The cheapest would be to to use lead bullets with a small charge of Unique or similar pistol powder. Pistol powders are faster burning, so a lot less powder is used to make the same amount of pressure. The velocity will be quite a bit slower though.

Next option would be to use M-1 carbine bullets. They are really cheap as far as jacketed bullets go. They are a lot lighter weight, but that shouldn't matter for what you want to use them for. As far as rifle powder goes, they are all about the same for cost and amount used goes. IMR-4895 would be a good choice.

Primers shouldn't matter on a Winchester 94. Just buy whatever is cheapest. I personally avoid Wolf or Magtech because a lot of my guns won't shoot them. It's a tradeoff between cost and reliability with primers.

As a side note on bullet selection, you should be using flat point bullets if you plan on loading more than one round in the magazine. Pointed bullets could potentially set off the next round in the magazine.

look up berry's plated bullets. they have a 150 gr bullet that will do up to 1600 fps or so. best, cheapest way I found to do plinkers short of casting my own.

I know reloading takes money. It's been a future project of mine for year, I have a press, dies, etc. Is there any disadvantage to lead vs. jacketed for plinking? Also, is pistol powder usually cheaper?
Thanks again.

Pistol powder works out to be cheaper because you use so much less of it for each shot.

But, there are real disadvantages for new reloaders in using pistol powders. For one thing, it takes so little room in the case, one has to be really careful to NEVER put two charges in the same case. That mistake may very well blow the rifle up, or at least damage it or ruin the brass cartridge case.

The classic powder for full power .30-30 loads is 30 grains of IMR 3031 powder. Slightly less powder (1 or 2 grains less) works okay too. The advantage to IMR 3031 is that 30 grains of it is just about a case full, so it is not possible to throw a double charge into a cartridge case.

For a slightly more parsiminous load, you might try SR 4759 powder. It uses smaller charges, but the powder is lighter and bulks up larger for the weight per grain, so there is still little danger of throwing a double charge into the case.

Be sure to carefully read your loading manual, and to start at about the minimum level charges recommended by it, whichever powder you use.


You can buy cast bullets through the mail cheaper than you can buy jacketed ones, and at 30-30 velocities they will work just fine. I would suggest getting the ones with only 1 or 2 "lube" grooves, so the lube and grooves will be inside the case neck and not picking up abrasive dust by being out in the open.

And if you can, get a truly experienced reloader from your gun club to help you the first few times you try loading your own ammo. He or she can and likely will notice any mistakes you make, and set you on the right paths.

Good luck.

I think I'll use handgun powder, cautiously.
Thanks for all the help and information.

quote:

Originally posted by Krueger:
I think I'll use handgun powder, cautiously.
Thanks for all the help and information.

If you are bent on doing that contact Seafire. roger

If you do decide to use a "handgun" powder, I'd go with Unique. Depending on the load, a pound will yield 600 (+/-) rounds.

quote:

Next option would be to use M-1 carbine bullets. They are really cheap as far as jacketed bullets go.

I dunno. he's using a Winchester M94 and cartidge length is a tad critical in that rifle.
I shoot strictly cast bullets in my 30-30 and have done so for more years than I care to count. One of my loads uses a 120 g. cast bullet that is about 1/8" longer than the standard M1 carbine bullets and I cannot seat it out far enough to properly feed from the magazine. However, the feed system is different enough in the Marlin that those same loads feed though the magazine like greased owl poop.
I've been doing cast bullets in handguns and rifles since 1954 so have a lot of equipment gathered up over the years.
If you want to do it as cheaply as possible and cast your own bullets, look at Lee for most of your stuff but other than that, do not skimp on the mold. Get the lowest priced Lee pot, their bullet sizing kit (sized at .310") a box of Hornady gas checks, (Lyman's are made by Hornady and cost more. ) The mold I would choose is the Lyman #311291, a round nose bullet that weighs roughly 175 gr. Don't sweat the round nose. I first used that bullet for an M94 back around 1956, give or take a year. Just order the mold with handles and figure it'll be worth it's weight in gold. How good is the bullet? Well, I've loaded it in the 30-30 to full power and using wheel weight metal with a bit of tin added, have killed 15 deer with that load. Quite a few coyotes too. With about 14.0 gr. of #2400 powder you have a neat plinker that will work for small game although I prefer a lighter bullet for small gane and plinking. One load is that 120 gr. bullet I have over 5.0 gr. of Unique. it requires resighting the rifle in but does a very dirty deed on jack rabbits.
Your investment would be somewhere between $100 and maybe $150 as a guess. At current ammo prices, it would not take all that long to amortize the cost of that equipment. Mine as paid for itself more than 10 times over. Hell way over 10 times over. Just something you might want to think about.
Paul B.

What Paul said. The "absoloute cheapest" is to cast your own for sure. I paid 5 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket full of wheel weights from a tire shop several years ago and still havent used it up yet. But as with any such thing, learn about doing it safley before attempting.

As for the pistol powder thing, as a newbie to reloading you should be aware that using pistol powder works fine if you follow the recepie, but since it builds up pressure fast there is also a finer line between safe loads and unsafe loads. Personaly I wouldnt reccomend such an approach to a newcomer to try to save a few pennies. Its bad economics if the action becomes a grenade.

J have been a cast bullet shooter for years, and have fired many, many thousands of rounds of .30 cast bullets in the field and in competition....for some 9 consecutive years, up to 1,250 or more of them per month, every month, year around!

IN the LOOOOONG run, casting your own is the cheapest approach, but in the short run it surely is not.

To cast and use bullets, you will need to buy a minimum of a lead pot, good gloves, a mould and handles, a bullet sizer die, and bullet lube.

With just that equipment, it will be tedious and slow work, mainly because that leaves you either putting the lube on by smearing it on with your fingers, or by standing the bullets on their bases in a cake sheet pan, melting the lube, and pouring it in the pan up to the height you want it on the bullets.

So, most folks also buy a lubri-sizer to both lube and size the bullets at the same time. That's another $100 or more for the tool (if bought new), and yet another $30 or so for a lube heater if you want to use the stiffer lubes. Stiffer lubes are generally not needed for .30-30 bullets, where a 50/50 Alox/Beeswax commercial lube will work fine, but in some applications some people still prefer the stiffer ones.


Then of course, if you want to have the bullets a little undersized for the barrel throat so that ejecting a loaded round won't chance leaving a bullet stuck in the throat when you're out in the field without a cleaning rod to dislodge it, and still not have the bases damaged by flame cutting when you shoot them, you will probably want gas checks, which alone now cost about 2 cents each for every bullet.

And it goes on and on and on and as you become a more sophisticated caster it is not at all difficult to end up with $500 or more of casting and bullet prep equipment at today's prices.

My advice, if you decide to go with cast bullets, is to shop the gun shows, and try to buy the equipment you want as already used rather than new.

But, with moulds, I'd buy new Lee Moulds to begin with. They don't cast as nice ullets as the more expensive brands, but at least they will likely not already be damaged when you first get them, which used ones may very well be.
As soon as I could afford it after that and had a vbit of casting experience, I'd go to the exact bullet Paul referred you to, but it will cost you sustantially more than a Lee mould unless you dare trying a used one.


As you become more experienced, you will learn what to look for in used moulds to assure they are okay, but that's a knowledge you have to buy with experience, not dollars.

So, honestly, I would suggest you start out by buying any cast bullets you want to try, from cast bullet dealers. Later, as you gain experience, you can begin doing your own casting, IF that has proven to be a way you still want to go.

Best wishes and good luck.

For a youngster, I loaded up 10 grains of Unique with a 110 grain RN a couple of years ago....

kid was a first grader, "hunting" with Grandpa off the back deck, since grandpa was in a wheel chair... and kid was using one of those short 16 inch barreled "Trapper" models...

took a blacktail in the back yard at Grandpa's place with it...

a very proud young man and very proud grandpa..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
For a youngster, I loaded up 10 grains of Unique with a 110 grain RN a couple of years ago....

kid was a first grader, "hunting" with Grandpa off the back deck, since grandpa was in a wheel chair... and kid was using one of those short 16 inch barreled "Trapper" models...

took a blacktail in the back yard at Grandpa's place with it...

a very proud young man and very proud grandpa..

And you should be very proud for having helped make it possible. Too many people today would fret over the highly unlikely (but still potentially there) legal ramifications and thought "Not my problem, man...".

Good on ya, Seafire

Krueger--As has been said get a manual and because you mentioned cast--get A Lyman manual. Reason being is that Lyman makes casting equipment thus they include casting data and information. You will hear all sorts of bad things that cast bullets do--hear it from folks that have never used them. Put them in the old wives catagory. One thing I read in the Lyman manual was about a test they did on two identical 30-06's one with cast bullets, the other with jacketed. Shot same number of rounds. When jacketed barrel was worn out, no measuable wear in the cast bullet barrel. How many shotout .22 rimfire barrels have you seen? That's all they shoot is cast bullets. I don't remember the first jacketed reload I shot--felt like the factory stuff. First cast bullets I shot in a rifle was in a 30-06. First load was 4064 powder about 2400fps and it felt about like a 30-30. Next load was Unique powder about 1600 fps--I thought it missfired. Very little noise and almost no recoil. I'd buy a RCBS mold, Lee pot, RCBS sizer and cast my own. Personally I'd go with a non gas check mold or omit the gas check even on a gas check designed mold.

Krueger--This info has been around 100 or so years and yet some people have not heard it. The 94 has a tubular magazine which means in the magazine you have bullet point against a primer and so that recoil does not set off a round in the magazine (bad news-dangerous,hazzardous) you must use flat nosed bullets(NO Spire points). Keep that in mind when seeking cheap bullets--not all are suited for your Win 94--some very dangerous to use in it.

Carpetman1, im glad to hear cast bullets are so easy to work with. I've heard they cause excess fouling, is that another for the wivestales pile?
Also, why would you skip the gas check? I think i will start casting just because I would have alot of uses for it. My new job will hopefully help the process start moving.
And I have known about the tube magazines and spitzers, I assumed that was common knowledge.

Yes, cast bullet can cause fouling called "leading the barrel". It can be a bitch to remove if the leading is heavy. However, if that occurs, just run down to your loacal super market and buy a box of Chore Boy scouring pads. Get the Chore Boy which has no soap. The Chore Girl has soap which you don't need. Then put a tight fitting brush on your cleaning rod and warp some of that Chore Boy pad around the brush and scrub away. It helps if you first saturate the bore with one of the lead cleaning solvents first. Wet it down good and let it sit for a while, wetting it down some more while the solvent soaks under the lead which will help loosening it. Then scrub well with the brush and Chore Boy and you'll "get the lead out." Some people will say to just shoot a couple of jacketed bullets though the barrel and shoot the lead out but that don't work. Sure some of the lead will be gone but some will have been ironed into the pores of the barrel's steel and future leading will be even more difficult to remove, In fact, the best way if that occurs is to plug the muzzle and carefully fill the bore with mercury (if you can find some) and let stand for a few minutes. Remove the plug and pour the mercury out. Then run a tight patch down the bore and all the lead will have been removed. One used to be able back in the 1950's to buy Blue Ointment, an OTC medicine for head lice. It contained mercury as the active ingredient. Smear some on a patch and scrub the bore and it too "got the lead out". Our benevelent government outlawed that stuff for human use because of the mercury. Sure did a number on lead in the barrel though.
Here are a couple of siste I recommend you going to that are dedicated to cast bullet shooting.

http://castboolits.gunloads.co...77be3d0c2f91547649e3

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/

Paul B.

Krueger--I've never experienced leading that required anymore cleaning from using cast bullets than what is required with copper bullets. Not using a gas check, even at higher velocity I have not noticed more leading nor loss of accuracy so that now I question even using a gas check. Bullet casting is not rocket science although many try to make it such. Air rifles use lead pellets with no lube. RWS literature says the residue that is left is a good lubricant and for that reason they recommend never cleaning the bore. (They say that but they sell cleaning pellets--they sell chamber and spring oil but recommend not using such?????) In their literature they recommend not---they don't state that on the product itself.

All of these answers have much truth in them, and some have a little tiny bit of wrong in them about lead bullets.

Truth is, leading can be caused by numerous things. Generally, severe leading is not caused by one failure or error, but maybe a combo of several.

Bullets fired at too high velocity, that don't fit the bore throat closely enough, and use a lubricant inappropriate to the bullet hardness and/or velocity, are just one combo which can contribute to leading. Several other things can too, that was just an example.

And, numerous things will get excess lead out of a bore easily and quickly, even the heaviest leading. A Lewis Lead Remover will do it (that's a kind of pricey tool, though), Scotch-brite will do it, patches cut from a product sold under various names such as "Lead Away" will do it, mercury will do it, and so will a number of other approaches/products.

.22 RF bullets, generally aren't cast...they're swedged, but they look and work just like cast ones, and cast ones would do the same job the same way if they were used in the same ammo with the same lube(s). Ammo makers making commercial RF ammo swedge them because it is faster, cheaper and easier, not better.

You should be prepared to do a lot of experimenting if you are going to get top accuracy from cast bullets. Unless you are lucky, you may have to try several bullet diameters, several different lubes, and several different powder charges to get the level of accuracy you might be hoping for. You might even have to try different bullets for absolute top accuracy. But lots of combos WILL quickly and easily give acceptable accuracy for most folks' uses (including plenty good enough for hunting).

Basically the process is identicl to finding good jacketed bullet loads, but adds in the complications of making your own bullets that the rifle likes...not ones you like the looks or measurements of, but ones it likes to shoot.

(Sometimes kinda like the diference between a gal you like the looks and measurements of, and one who would actually make a good wife for you.)

But that's all part of the fun. Plus it makes it possible to do enough shooting you can become a far better shot than most folks.

It will also teach you a LOT about estimating winds and allowing for them, as even the small winds tend to move .30 caliber cast bullets off target center a great deal more than one might expect.

None-the-less, in some competition bolt action rifles .30 cast bullets DO give less than 1/2" 10-shot groups at 100 yards. Hunting accuracy from barrels using cast bullets tends to not last forever....it lasts forever plus about 10 years!!!

Best of all, it makes you one step closer to being independent from the politicians when it comes to feeding your guns!

Just buy a LEE Loader, LEE case trimmer, IMR 3031 powder, bulk 150 grain bullets from Remington, and some CCI 200 primers. Load for around $4.00 a box of 20. That will save you $10 a box and pay for the equipment in the first three boxes. If that is too expensive, you need to find another hobby or go to pellet rifles.

Krueger,

I started casting my own oh, I dont know about 5 or 6 years ago I guess. I enjoy it, its a fun and rewarding hobbie.

One of the best things I did was to pick up a little speer bullet casting manual on flea-bay for a rediculously low price. It has a wealth of knowlege in it that is really worth while. I also have some old lyman books but need to get a more updated one.

Anyway the reason Im telling you this is because there a lot of do's and donts and different ways to prevent leading the bbl.

A general rule of thumb is to keep non gas checked bullets under 1000 fs and gas checked ones under 2000. Again these are generalizations. In knowing this one can also see that it makes sense to get molds in the highest weights possible for your application of you wish to maximize ballistic potential.

Then there is alloys, hardening (which is real easy), sizing and so on..

Casting is not for everyone, but if your into that sort of thing it has its perks..

Reload cast bullets I suppose, but from time to time you can buy 30-30s on sale for $6.00 to $8.00 per box..I bought 20 boxes of Factory stuff 30-30s loaded with 150 gr. X bullets for $5.99 per box about a year or so ago..Some ammo outfit had a trailer full of ammo at Simerleys in Wendell, Id. for about a week..I get flyers with great deals on 30-30 ammo from time to time. Hardly makes reloading worthwhile for 30-30s IMO...and I have a pretty extensive reloading shop.