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| One of Us |
Went to the range today with my new Beretta PX4 Storm Compact. Fired 50 rounds of factory WWB 9mm 115 gr FMJ without a hitch. Switched to reloads and fired 6 rounds with no problems. The 7th round was a squib. Very light firing pin strike and very, very small indentation on the primer with no ignition of the primer. The bullet was ejected from the case and traveled just far enough to engage the rifling that it had to be driven out with a rod. There was no ignition of the powder but unburned flakes (Bullseye) covered the grooves in the slide and on the frame. I cleaned up everything and tried again. The 8th round functioned properly but the problem repeated on the 9th round. The empty cases were then chambered and both fired normally. Cases were once fired Winchester, CCI small pistol primer, and a 125 gr Lee bullet #356-125-2R sized to 0.356. I've used this load for several years in a S&W 1911 and a Springfield 1911 with no problems whatsoever. I've been reloading for over 50 years and have never encountered anything even remotely like this and am at a loss to understand what caused it. Obviously something caused the bullet to leave the case but it wasn't ignition of the powder or primer. Anyone have any kind of an explanation? | ||
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| Administrator |
Sounds very strange indeed! The primer did not fire. The powder was not ignited. So what pushed the bullet out of the case?? The small indentation on the primer would lead me to believe there might have been some dirt that has prevented the firing pin to fully hit the primer?? Would be very interesting to see what actually happened. | |||
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One of Us |
I would suggest the primers have partially ignited producing enough pressure to eject the projectiles into the rifling but not enough to ignite the powder and the small gaseous pressure created self extinguishes the primer. Perhaps the primers are not fully seated in their pocket, hence the reason they fire on a second strike after the blow of the firing pin seats them on the first strike. Projectiles cannot possibly leave the case without some pressure from something. Powder contained in a case does require a good ignition source to get it ignited, whereas outside a case the same powder is easy to ignite with just a small spark | |||
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| one of us |
Improperly seated primer, round not seated into the chamber fully, Bullet seated out to far engaging the rifling and sticking, to much lube bullet lube on the out side not allowing proper chambering. Take the barrel out and see if the cartridge drops into the chamber properly. If thy don't try cleaning them with a rag making sure no lube or dirt on the out side. I had that problem with some pistols my Hi power eats every thing others not so much. sounds like your Strom has a tight chamber | |||
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| one of us |
Sounds like primers are not fully seated in the primer pockets. | |||
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| one of us |
Always clean primer pockets ! Always seat primers ALL the way down Not 'flush with the case head' ! That way the primer is sensitized as the anvil squeeses the primer compound. Anything interfering with an inertia firing pin can stop it or slow it down to change ignition.Burrs, dirt etc. You may also have a bad batch of primers ,some of which may give lower pressure [or even higher pressure as I once had } | |||
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One of Us |
Yes, your primers ignited; how old are they and did they get wet or oily? How about your powder? Good bullseye will burn even with a weak primer; so something is not right. I do not like Bullseye in Lugers. | |||
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one of us |
I had the same type of problem, stuck bullet and powder in the gun. It turned out to be bullet seated without enough crimp. | |||
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Thanks for all the responses. Saeed - This is a new gun, right out of the box. There was definitely a light firing pin strike on the misfires so it is possible that some debris was left in the firing pin channel during assembly. The 50 factory rounds and the first 6 rounds of reloads fired ok, followed by 2 out of the next 3 reloads malfunctioning so I think it's more probable that there was a problem with the rounds. I hadn't thought of it but I'll check for debris though since it is a possibility. Thanks for bringing it up. Re: comments on primers - I clean all primer pockets prior to cleaning the cases in a vibrator type cleaner, rinse and dry them, and then visually inspect all pockets and flashholes since cleaning media sometimes becomes lodged in the holes. Primers are seated using an RCBS dedicated priming tool so I can feel how the primers are seated and if the pockets are tight or loose. I also visually inspect each case for high or deformed primers after they are seated. The primers are approximately 2 1/2 years old (yeah, I date them and the powder when purchased), and I bought the powder last November. Buckeyeshooter - I suspect that your problem, insufficient crimp, is possible but what caused the bullet to be ejected from the case? While the cases are all from the same manufacturer they were purchase at different times, possibly months apart, and I've noticed that the brass isn't consistent in thickness which would result in variations in how firmly the bullet is held in place. I doubt that there was a partial ignition of the powder since the bullet bases were perfectly clean and showed no sign soot. Bullseye produces a lot of combustion residue. | |||
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| one of us |
It sounds as if you're saying that the primers ignited twice -- once on the first shot and again on placing the empties in the gun and firing again. Is this correct? | |||
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| One of Us |
Check your throat, brass length, and bullets; load some dummy rounds and see if they contact the throat//rifling. Maybe the bullets just got stuck, and you have some short brass or hard primers. You didn't accidentally load rifle primers? Measure those too. that would account for it, and if all the factory loads fired, then there is nothing wrong with your pistol. I think your primers did not fire the first time (primers can't fire twice) , just on the second hit, which is normal for second strikes. What I am saying, is that might be excessive "headspace", created by short brass. Not that your pistol is bad. | |||
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Bullet "ejected" from case. Insufficient case-mouth crimp......slide assembly inertia, imparted to round during chambering, throws round forward into barrel chamber......case stops on rim mouth, but bullet does NOT......slips forward into barrel. Possibly........ Kevin | |||
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Stonecreek - no, I'm not saying the primers fired twice, only once on the second time. dpcd - I'll try a couple of dummies as you suggest tomorrow. Not rifle primers. I load in the house but keep components in the shop and bring them in as needed. Haven't loaded rifle in over a year so don't have any rifle primers in the house, they're all in the shop. Kevin - that's what I suspect happened. | |||
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Any chance your primers are taking on some moisture out in the shop ? (high humidity) What do you have them stored in? | |||
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| One of Us |
Even if the loose bullet theory it true, it does not explain the light primer hits. Hard primers, or short cases, would. Damp primers; maybe, but primers are very moisture resistant. | |||
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| One of Us |
Primer indentations from primer-only loaded cases and round of ammunition are completely different. In the former, the firing pin strike forces the case fully to the chamber mouth, the primer detonates and is forced back from pressure in the primer pocket against the breech face, often resulting in a rather light looking pin strike/shallow indentation. In the latter, the same occurs and then the case is forced back into the breech face under full chamber pressure, re-seating the primer and usually resulting in a deeper more fully formed indentation. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is true, but he had light primer strikes before the primer ignited. "Very light firing pin strike and very, very small indentation on the primer with no ignition of the primer. " | |||
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| One of Us |
CCI primers. They were stored in the shop before being brought into the house. The shop is built like the house - fully insulated and climate controlled (heat pump). The shop was built that way so it can be converted to a residence at a later date if needed. The bullets show no sign of contact with the rifling. | |||
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| One of Us |
It's the bullet jump thing that baffles me... Now, CCI primers are probably the hardest made, so that might explain the no fire. Switch primers. Check your case expander plug/bullet tension. Drive on. | |||
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| One of Us |
One possible scenario: The bullets are jamming into the throat. This could be bullet design or a build-up of powder and bullet lube fouling. This would explain the bullet staying the barrel. The misfiring could be the result of the bullet jamming in the throat and keeping the slide from going into full battery. The slide could be interfering with the hammer fall, and/or the firing pin strike is not close enough the center to pop the primer. Since the primers fire without a bullet in the case, it is very unlikely that they are part of the problem. Roughone (You can't fix stupid) Falls of Rough Ky University Our victory cry is FORK U! | |||
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OP said the bullets are un marked. Maybe, on the primers, but lightly struck primers routinely fire on the second hit as the cup is already hit once. It is hard to troubleshoot things without them in front of me. | |||
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Woody, my guess was recoil. It was a 500 SW revolver shooting 275 Barnes bullets at about 1800 fps. Not super hot loads, but hot enough to let the bullets move with no crimp groove. Putting a better crimp on the round solved the problem for me. | |||
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| One of Us |
First, if any of the "unburned" powder actually came from your misfire, you had to have managed both an excessively light charge (to the point of effectively being no charge at all) and the powder had to be contaminated. I suspect you simply saw residue from prior shooting and did not have any powder charge in the case. All charged cases must be inspected before seating a bullet-- either by eye or use of Lock-Out die. Did you try to re-fire the primer, as I can not see any eay for you to have a squib without the primer firing (and the primer blast will blow-out the flash hole). | |||
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| One of Us |
Each charged case is visually inspected twice, once immediately after charging, and again prior to seating the bullet, so I know that the cases were charged and they were not "light". I saw unburned powder, not powder residue. I've been loading Bullseye for over 56 years so I know what unburned powder looks like. As previously stated the primer did fire on the second attempt. I haven't had time to load a dummy round to further investigate but my guess at this point is that the bullet has a different, fuller and more rounded profile, coupled with a tight chamber, that caused the bullet to jam in the throat before the round was fully seated. The Beretta PX4 has a barrel that rotates as the slide closes and that rotation might have been enough to break the bullet free from the crimp, and the bullet stuck in the throat when the slide was pulled back. It did take a lot of force to retract the slide. I don't understand why the hammer fell if the slide wasn't in battery though. | |||
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Just out of curiousity, what goes on between charging the case and seating the bullet that involves two inspections? So, then did the squib happen after the second strike when the primer fired? Did you simply cock the hammer and re-fire or was there some other action? So far, from what you say, you may have had a primer that wasn't seated deep enough and a COL that was too long (some guns, like some Glocks I have seen, can be as much as 0.25" out of battery and still "fire." | |||
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quote: Just out of curiousity, what goes on between charging the case and seating the bullet that involves two inspections? So, then did the squib happen after the second strike when the primer fired? Did you simply cock the hammer and re-fire or was there some other action? So far, from what you say, you may have had a primer that wasn't seated deep enough and a COL that was too long (some guns, like some Glocks I have seen, can be as much as 0.25" out of battery and still "fire." I typically charge 100 cases at a time using two 50 round loading trays. I charge one tray and visually inspect each case to make sure each case is charged and all cases appear to have an equal amount of powder. I then set that tray aside and charge the second tray. I then inspect the second tray and set it aside. I then re-inspect the first tray, then seat bullets. I then re-inspect the second tray and seat bullets. After the misfire I dropped the magazine and pulled back the slide, ejecting the case. After disassembling, cleaning out the unfired powder and removing the bullet from the barrel I reassembled, inserted the case, and fired it. I also visually inspect each loaded round to make sure there are no high primers. A slam fire is not something I care to experience. | |||
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