Belts are there for headspacing. A full-length sized belted case can have lots of room around the shoulder, allowing the case angle downward relative to the bore axis, the bottom of the case laying on the bottom of the chamber with.

With the exception of the 458 Win. Mag. and a couple of others, a reloader can use the shoulder insted of the belt for headspacing. When the firing pin drives the case forward, the shoulder of the case will tend to center itself in the shoulder of the chamber, and the cartridge will be better aligned with the bore axis, potentially contributing to better accuracy.

Every so often, you will see objections raised to headspacing on the shoulder. The two I'm concerned about here are reliable chambering (any gun) and reliable extraction (single shots and doubles, especially). You can't read much on the topic without being told to full length size your DG hunting rounds.

This is the idea. I swear I didn't read it somewhere. For all I know, it's a well-known technique. Maybe it has a fatal flaw that is also well known. That's why I ask.

What if the back millimeter or so of the neck of a belted bottleneck sizing die were ground out to a larger diameter? This would allow the case to be full length resized and headspace on the belt. At the same time, a tiny bit of the case neck would be at its full fire-formed diameter and fit almost snugly in the neck of the chamber. This would have the effect of supporting the case in line with the bore axis.

I don't make cases from other calibers, but stuff along these lines is done by wildcatters to form nonstandard cases. I just wonder if it has application to reloading belted bottleneck cases in general.

H. C.

Wouldn't do any good because of the difference in the belt on batch to batch ammo...So the answer is to set the die to a crush fit and then back off to not quite snug...

I guess I should add that all this makes little difference in a 375 or larger caliber as they are not target or varmint rounds and shooting buffalo at up to 150 yards or bear at 200 does not require minute of angle accuracy, albiet most any good rifle will shoot about an inch for 3 shots with a little tweeking...few will shoot an inch with 5 shots.

Ray, that is well said. I have a friend who like to went crazy with his 300WM after having his dies set up and then changing brass. The belt was a good bit thicker, (closer to shoulder) than his last and when he was trying to shoot them both--well geez.

At any rate he set his dies up for reliable chambering and after working on seating depth and powder quantity a little his rifle was sub-inch at a 100 anyway--with a couple of different loads.

Reliable feeding is the deal, especially with what you might need to shoot with a 458 WM.

quote:

Originally posted by HenryC470:

What if the back millimeter or so of the neck of a belted bottleneck sizing die were ground out to a larger diameter? This would allow the case to be full length resized and headspace on the belt. At the same time, a tiny bit of the case neck would be at its full fire-formed diameter and fit almost snugly in the neck of the chamber. This would have the effect of supporting the case in line with the bore axis.

H. C.

Couldn't you accomplish the same thing by using a Redding Body die to FL size and then use a FL sizing die that is adjusted about 1 1/2 turn back so it doesn't hit the case body and neck sizes about 75% fo the neck?

Must confess I'm new to reloading, but I do reload for a 300 win mag and don't know how and when the die resizes the belt and what you should try to do to the belt, how to measure it, etc.

Every full length sizing die I know of stops just short of the belt. There is a guy that makes a collet die that slides down tight against the belt and will resize the case wall all the way to the belt. In certain guns with loose chambers this die can help you "reclaim" expensive brass. I do alot of loading for a friend with some custom rifles chambered for various weatherby calibers. His guns have somewhat loose chambers and we have problems resizing without using this collet die. The die cost about $90 and it didn't take long with weatherby brass to pay for itself. In a gun with a good tight chamber you won't need this die--your normal dies will continue to resize the brass for it's useful life.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Couldn't you accomplish the same thing by using a Redding Body die to FL size and then use a FL sizing die that is adjusted about 1 1/2 turn back so it doesn't hit the case body and neck sizes about 75% fo the neck?

That sounds like a much more orthodox way of doing the same thing. You could probably buy that body die for less than it would cost me to screw up my FL die, too.

H. C.

H. C.

So, if you push the shoulder back .003" and chamber a resized case, does the front of the belt actually compress against the chamber when the firing pin pushes the case forward or does the shoulder hit first?

I think I'm going to go back to bowhunting, this is too hard!!

The answer is....it depends.
If the belt recess of the chamber is at the extreem long end, and the belt on the cartridge is on the short end, you could end up with .015 clearance on the belt and only .003 (using your example) clearance at the shoulder. OTOH if the blt recess is at minimum and the belt at max than you'd hit the belt first. IIRC the belt recess is supposed to be .220-.227 deep, how wide is the belt on your brass?

Kraki:something very interesting,"His guns have somewhat loose chambers and we have problems resizing without using this collet die."I own a .30-378WBY ACCUMARK(no custom),I ask LEE if they can make dies for it,the guy said they cannot make collet dies for this caliber.I have a lot of problems reloading this caliber,standard dies as Rcbs or Redding didnt work.Took me 5 years to solve the problem.Can you explain what do you mean by loose chambers and describe the resizing problems.Mine(chamber) is out of standard dimensions..

Here's a link to testimonials about the die and at the bottom you'll get back to the manufacturers website.

http://www.larrywillis.com/testimonials.html

The bad news is this won't work with the big 30-378 case--it is only designed for cases like 7mm mag, 300 win mag, 300 wby etc.

The guns I worked with were a custom 300 wby and a custom 270 wby. I'm at work and can't be sure but I believe on these cartridges the saami spec just above the belt is .512. Anyhow after just one firing I would resize the brass and found that I now had a bulge just above the belt at about .513-.514. I think if we were just neck sizing we wouldn't have had trouble but being that no FL die I know of sizes down tight to the belt it would take the body of the case down to about .510 but leave a wrinkle or bulge by the belt. It took me alot of fiddling to figure this out as I thought I had to much headspace after resizing but finally noticed the abrasions by the belt.
Not sure if all this helps and the problem of course is he doesn't make a die to fit that big case of yours. (Unless he has a prototype??)
Let me know if you need more clarification. By the way both these guns are fantastic shooters and my friend doesn't mind the pain in the ass of resizing---probably cause I'm the one doing it!!!!!! He's a nice guy and bought me the die and then gave me a really big bag of once fired 300 wby brass that I can reclaim and use in my 300 wby and I also use a taper die to open it up to work in my .340 wby as well.

PS--Rejpelley---What does weatherby have to say about this?? If they cut a bad chamber they should make it right. What kind of trouble did you have exactly. I have a sako in 30-378 and I got a set of forester benchrest dies and they take alot of effort to resize. I sent them back with some 1x fired shells and they said everything was in spec and I should use better lube. I ordered a set of rcbs dies and they worked great. I use the rcbs sizer die and the forester seating die and all works well. Wish the 300 rum had been out before the 30-378---I think it's a far better cartridge.

Kraky;300 RUM instead of the .30-378WBY,I agree.The problems with my particular rifle:I have to switch Fed 215 for wlrm primers,the feds wew to hard to push in,I had to enlarge socket pocket hole(unprimed cases and factory fired cases),I had to glue bedding srews they didnt stay srewed.I enlarged the diameter of the muzzle break(make sure the bullet make no contact???.Scope Elite 4000 with Weaver mounts.Now the problem with the Rcbs And Redding FL sizer(Using the sizers Rcbs and Redding neck sizer I didnt have this problem but the accuracy was no good 1.5-1.75").Using brand new cases I had smooth resizing but with once fired cases,I had very hard resizing,almost all of cases had some crushing spots,below the shoulder area 1/2"below the shoulder.I had no good accuracy with those cases(backing up powder made no difference).I used PFLR .003"bump the shoulder,to adjust headspace I use pieces of scotch tape in front of the case head(3 of them near.003").I have no marks on the belt(a budge I dont know).Fired 450 rounds trying different combos powders/bullets,accuracy was bad,3"MOA and some "flyers.Was about to give up with that particular rifle,when a member from this forum told me he has fine accuracy using Forster Bench rest dies.WHAT A DIFFERENCE THESE DIES MADE.Trying brand new cases was easyly below 1".Reloading those fireformed cases into the Forster fl sizer,the sizing smooth almost as new cases(Rcbs Rdding sizers were very "
Hard")those ones were below.5MOA.I really dont know how the Forster bench rest dies makes the rounds shooting that fine.I presume this Weatherby chamber was badly cut near the area below the shoulder,may be too large,too loose etc...Something I dont understand,with Forster dies you have no good accuracy,mine is the opposite.Sure Weatherby did something the the chambers of our rifles,something match the Forster seater...

Yes, it is interesting how the opposite worked out on the dies. When the 30-378 made it's appearance there was alot of hooopla over it. I think too many people rushed products to market before getting them "really right".
I found your comment about the muzzle brake interesting as I have a lightweight 300 wby that didn't shoot good and my "smith" found the same thing--hole to small in the muzzle brake.
I bought 4 jap built weatherbies before the sako and the American made weatherby ultra light and guess which have been the excellent guns!!!!???? OH well I'm getting older and shooting and hunting aren't as high on the list as before. Still have lots of fun guns to fall back on but sometimes it's a challenge and a rewarding experience to bring the "rough" guns up to speed!

Kraky;dies made by different factories,they probably did the same thing.Four 4 years on this forum and others,only two came with valuable info,first one the member that told me using Forster dies and you,problem with the bell;thanks both of you.I think I am stuck what our friend Walter said"the heavier the bullet,less powder you must to use."May be someone will come up with some valuable info about the problems with ours Weatherby,the info must be "out there""
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Headspace all fired bottlenecked cases off the shoulder when sizing them, belted or not! You will get longer case life and better accuracy. Forget that a case has a belt, (if it does!!).

El Deguello;concerning standard chamber rifle,I agree.Chambers out of standard dimensions(large,loose,bad cut chamber etc.) ,headspacing wont solve the problem.Can you explain the opposite between me and Kracy.Something I cannot understand why Rcbs and Redding "crushed almost all my cases and why Forster dont(oppisite to Kraky).Where do you think headspace my cases...