I have been trying to work up loads for my recently bedded CZ Model 3 300WSM. Before bedding it was shooting OK, about 1 1/4 plus at 100 yards with several loads. I figured a good bedding job and free floating the barrel would help tighten things up.

My last two sessions at the range have me more frustrated then ever. This is a typical 4 shot group at 100 yards. Notice shot #2 way left. I would get fliers like this in just about every group. The flier would come at random. Sometimes it would be #1, #2 or #3, but never #4.


The rifle is a CZ Model 3 in 300WSM with Leupold DD bases and rings, Nikon 4.5-14x40 Buskmaster with side focus. The trigger has been worked to a smooth, crisp 3lbs.

What do you think? Bad bedding job, scope issues, bad shooter or POS rifle?

I'm not an expert and I probably don't understand well, but are the fliers ALWAYS on the left and slightly lower than the main group?

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:
are the fliers ALWAYS on the left and slightly lower than the main group?

No, they are pretty much all over the map.

It could be posible that your rifle doesn't like that powder/bullet combination. I have a rifle that groups like that when it doesn't like a powder. It can group under an inch when it likes a load, but it will touch two holes and put one anywhere else it likes within about 2 inches. I am no expert, but if you handload, that may be something to consider.
Hope that helps,
Graham

Thanks M70, but this target is just one of many. I get these way out fliers with every powder/ bullet combo I have tried. Hunter, DP-86. DP-85, N-560, N-165, N-160, R-22, MagPro, MRP and IMR 4350. Bullets tested were 150,165 and 180gr Partitions and 180 Sierra GK.

I was using a graphite to lub my barrel after cleaning that caused flyers if you are using something like that it might cause it.
I would change the scope if you could to check it.
Make sure what you are shooting from on the bench is holding it rock steady.
Shoot three shot groups so you dont get your barrel too hot.
The only other gun I had that shot like that had a cracked stock make sure something is not letting your action shift.
You could shoot some factory ammo just to check it against your reloads.

Steve,

I don't know if this is your problem, but I discovered by accident when doing some work with my 9.3x62 that case case neck lube can cause this type of group. Neck tension is much more important to grouping than I ever realized. I don't know if this will help, but look at making sure your neck tension (there are several things that can impact it - lube, times fired, trim length, different cases, different lots) is uniform.

Another cause could be poor bullets. Benchrest shooters report some bullets have voids in them which make them fly erratically. They actually make a sonar device to check bullets (very expensive), but some manufacturers are using them for QC. I was going to suggest using Nosler's, but I see you have.

I'd check my scope installation from top to bottom. A very small shift in scope can cause a flier like you report. Someone reported a poorly adjusted/manufactured set of Weaver rings causing such a problem here recently.

I'd check your crown. They tell me this can also occur.

To eliminate the potential for "user error," I'd have another person of known ability shoot the rifle. Kudude

the case neck lube is a cool idea never thought of that, then look at run out, if I have a loaded round where the bullet is over 0.06 in run out it will be a flyer. I check my sized cases for run out now and throw those away that are over 0.05. Also if the loading die bullet seater is not a good fit to the bullet you are using it can put them in crooked, I did this with a bunch of 130 accubonds in a 270, it was either a redding or a lee die, can't remember. Finally my shooting just plain sucks, I will put 3 bullets into a little tiny cloverleaf and then lose focus and shoot one and inch away, but that is just me.

you might consider how you are engaging the stock with your facial position. I had a similar problem and this helped me.

Steve,

Do you wear any sort of glasses or contacts when you shoot?

Looking through your corrective lenses differently will also change your POI...goes hand in hand with previous post about your head position on the stock....

Good luck..I know how frustrating this can be.

Cheers and let us know when you get it worked out.

All loads tested had .002 runout or less.

I do not wear and corrective lenses, only non prescription shooting glasses.

I'll go through the scope mounts with a fine tooth comb. I will also change it with a proven scope and retest.

I am leaning towards a poor bedding job.

Interesting that this has started after the bedding and free floating job. You seem to be willing and able to do lots of testing. May I suggest before you change anything on the bedding that you experiment with a barrel channel packing. Try different positions and different contact pressures. Felt cloth is thin enough to fit in the barrel channel. (The idea is to see what happens, not solve the problem. I'm not seeing steel machining impressions in the rear bedding - this could mean something).

Also check that barrel crown and the last bit of of rifling. It is possible that the bore opens up just a tiny amount at the end and that the free floating is now showing up this defect. It has happened that rifles that did this sort of thing were corrected by trimming small amounts off the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
I am leaning towards a poor bedding job.

Me too.

If the bedding compound is not molded by the action, then it's just filler. I'm wondering about the barrel; might want to double-check how well free-floated it is. A paper shim under the front of the action might be telling.
.

Notice the bedding around the recoil lug. It looks as though he added some compound on the sides just forward of the recoil lug. These two spots of added compound are a little high. Also the lighter colored compound just behind that silly finger is also high. It appears that this finger has been added after the main recoil lug area was cured also.

The rear tang area shows no signs of steel impressions. It looks as though he molded it with his fingers and after it cured cut it away until the action fit into the stock.

I'll play around with some pressure points and see what happens.

What's a flyer?

I agree with your points about the bedding both in the front and rear. I'm no gunsmith but I have bedded a half dozen rifles and none of mine looked like that. The entire action should be bearing evenly in the stock without undue pressure or torque. I would think yours might be under some stress due to the high spot at the recoil lug and the apparent low spot on the tang area on the back.

If it were mine, I'd do a little bit of sanding on the existing bedding compound and rebed it. I like to fully bed the recoil lug area except for the front of the lug. A piece of masking tape over the front of the lug prior to bedding is usually sufficient.

You might consider posting this in the Gunsmithing section as some pretty experienced people will probably give you some great advice.

I know this is of no help, but this problem like so meny other like it, begs me to ask this question: Why dont gun smiths test fire a rifle before and after a beding job, or at least after? I had my 10ML-II bedded and I would only send it to a smith that promised to test fire it after bedding it, I was happy to pay for this additional cost. That way when i got my 10ML-II back I had no problems with it. I know that is a big added head ache, but at least offer it at a additional charge.

I say this because over the last 18 months I have read ALLOT of posts requesting help with POI problems AFTER a bedding job that were not their prior to bedding.

Hey steve,After you get everything rechecked out,if you want to try some accurate factory ammo just for kicks,try a box of the new winchester black box,silver tip?Nosler CT ?Nickle /brass ammo,that stuff has shot the most accurate of any ammo i have ever tried...its expensive but very accurate...No way i can make a handload any better...Good luck!
Forgot to add,Try shooting a group with a dirty barrel,run about 6-8 rounds thru it,let it cool and shoot it dirty,I have had lots of flyers when my barrel was shooting the first few rounds out of a clean barrel...maybe yours shoots best a little dirty?Had a ruger 77 like that one time...

Obviously, consider the bedding job.

I would recrown the muzzle, and clean the bore to bare metal.

Run about 5-6 foul shots, let barrel get cold. Then start over with load tests.

2 of my smiths told me that the crown is the first thing to consider with flyers, and bedding is second. Good luck.

Well, I drove a couple of hours last night and had my CZ Model 3 checked out by the best Gunsmith in the area. He was not impressed to say the least (with the bedding, not me). As soon as he saw the bedding he new who had done the work. He has seen it many times before. He is going to remove the old bedding and set me up right, $$$. I will let you know how it shoots in about 5 weeks when I get it back.

Thanks for the Help.