Okay

Started to reload 338 win mag and the first thing I do is try the cases in the gun to check for excessive crush fit to see if I need to use the Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back. Out of 20 cases I'm reloading, I checked a random 1/3 and none had a crush fit in the gun. So, Lee Collet Neck Sizer time. After sizing with the Collet Die I again checked it in the gun and the bolt was hard to close, more crush fit than I wanted.

Checked the cases with the Stoney Point Head and Shoulders Gauge and the measurement before the neck sizing was 4.1225". The measurement after the neck sizing was 4.1225". No change!

Okay, after neck sizing the cases I used the Redding Body Die at the previous setting and the shoulder did not get pushed back (4.1225") but the crush fit was gone.

The OAL also did not change.

How did the Collet neck sizer create a crush fit?

I have no idea, but if it happens again why don't you try smoking or inking some cases before you chamber them to maybe see what part of the case is contacting the chamber with so much force.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
How did the Collet neck sizer create a crush fit?

Does that die make ridges that may rise up between the collet fingers??
Also check that the bottom edge of the sholder hasn't been bulged out from excess pressure.

Woods...I've had the same problem with some once fired brass in a couple different rifles. The brass chambers just fine (even after firing) but once through the collet die and something changes and the bolt gets hard to work. I've never liked the idea of a bolt that closes with more effort than it should even though some people think it might center the cartridge better.
I've never done it but I read a post once where a guy had the problem and he made a washer to sit on top of his shellholder. Thus the crimper should activate on the collet die before the shell is all the way up in there. That way the neck is sized higher. I think our mutual problem is there is some sizing going on right at the taper of the neck to shoulder and is a problem for a tight fitting chamber.
What do you think of that idea??

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Okay, after neck sizing the cases I used the Redding Body Die at the previous setting and the shoulder did not get pushed back (4.1225") but the crush fit was gone.

Hey Woods, Surely you knew this question was coming!

Any chance that "Stoney Point Tool" pulled a clinton on you and Lied?

Gotta admit, if the Case feels different when you close the Bolt on it, I'd be inclined to think "something" changed. But then I don't use one of those excellent Tools.

This is indeed a bit of a mystery. When chambering a Collet sized case, and having it chamber stiffly, is it possible to see on the chambered (and extracted) case, where it ran up against the chamber?? Sometimes, cases will be scratched enough by hard chambering for the "offending" location to be visible.

Otherwise, if it is not a matter of increased head-shoulder dimensions, and it should not be with a Collet Die, it can really only be the case body which makes it hard to chamber the case. So measure the diameter of the case behind the shoulder and just in front of the extraction groove (assuming rimmless case here). Do this for both a (fired) case which will chamber with no or little effort and for a Collet sized case, which will not. Do any of these dimensions change with sizing??

- mike

Sorry mho, I've already prepped that batch of cases and will have to wait till next time to take measurements on the cases. I would not think that the Collet die is changing any measurement on the case body, but who knows?

I think kraky is right and there must be a slight expansion at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Perhaps when the brass is reduced by the collett the extra brass is pushed there.

Hey H C, no I don't think the Head and Shoulders gauge lied (did you notice that the measurement went down to the ten/thousands of an inch?). A question I've been meaning to ask you: If you use the method of adjusting the sizing die until the crush fit starts to lessen and if you have a gun that the bolt closes tight in (feels like a crush fit), how do you know when you get to PFLR?





When I try the cases after firing them and they have a crush fit (ready for the Redding Body Die), the Head and Shoulders Gauge lets me set the shoulder back exactly .001". Seems like it is much more exact than just using the gun.


Since you bring up Clinton, did you know that Monica Lewinsky is going to be the new head coach of the Houston Texans football team? She will no doubt blow a few, but she certainly won't choke on the big ones!

Carefully measure your case diameter at the shoulder before and after sizing. You will probably find that the shoulder diameter has increased by maybe .0005". This is enough to make it harder to close your bolt on fire formed cases. I have run into this quite a bit when you have to push fairly heavily on the press handle to size the necks. What is happening is that when the collet starts squeezing the neck, the inside of the neck grips the mandrel and holds it there. As the pressure increases from you pushing on the press handle, the fingers of the collet flex slightly and the cartridge gives way by bulging at the shoulder.

I have gotten around this by holding the case up in the shell holder with a small screw driver just long enough till the collet starts to grip the neck of the case. I then pull the screw driver out and then finish the stroke. Even with the handle down at the finish of the stroke I can still get a feeler gauge in between the case head and the shell holder. In other words my shell holder is only pushing on the collet and not on the cartridge case.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...Hey H C, no I don't think the Head and Shoulders gauge lied (did you notice that the measurement went down to the ten/thousands of an inch?).

Hey Woods, Yes I did notice the reading to 0.000X". And it might be correct. Let's assume it is correct.

quote:

A question I've been meaning to ask you: If you use the method of adjusting the sizing die until the crush fit starts to lessen and if you have a gun that the bolt closes tight in (feels like a crush fit), how do you know when you get to PFLR?

I simply get the "feel" of the Bolt Closing by cycling it a few times with nothing in the Chamber. Then when I can "feel" a bit more resistance to it closing on a P-FLRed Case, I'm there. It is easier to "feel" than to explain.

quote:

When I try the cases after firing them and they have a crush fit (ready for the Redding Body Die), the Head and Shoulders Gauge lets me set the shoulder back exactly .001". Seems like it is much more exact than just using the gun...

That is the great thing about Reloading, there are so many subtle ways to go about achieving a similar task.

I still get some pleasure asking a few Democrats I bump into how Monica and clinton are doing. Always seems to embarrass them for some reason.
---

By the way, I think Hart has the correct answer about the "Shoulder" being expanded slightly when you use that particular Lee Die. Here is what we know from your posts:

1. When you Resize the Case with the Lee Die, it creates an interference fit of some kind in the rifle.
2. Body Dies do not touch Case Necks, just the Case Shoulder and the Body.
3. After Resizing with the Lee Die, the shoulder seems to be in the same position when measured with the Stoney Point Tool.
4. Running the Case through the Body Die also does not seem to be moving the shoulder, but the Interference Fit is gone.

Since the Redding Body Die is correcting the problem and since we know the Shoulder isn't moving Length wise, it seems that only leaves the Shoulder Width and Body Width as possible Interference Fit choices.

And, I do believe Hart is correct. Plus he has even posted a way to resolve the issue.

Nice post Hart.

Best of luck to you Woods.

I have 2 .300 wby's--one american made and one jap. Using the same collet die on one gun I have a problem...on the other I can resize several times and the cases keep feeding like butter. I have a ruger .243---have problems with that gun and the collet die. I have a tikka 30-06--that gun feeds like butter even after several collets sizings. It seems like the problem is most prominent near max loads (although the guns that don't have a problem are run near max too).

The washer idea would sure be ez to try.
The collet die is sure wonderful when working on new loads---I use a bore brush on a drill to clean out necks...then resize and load...quick and no hassles.


I think the washer idea will be awful ez to try but just haven't gotten around to it.

Hey kraky

I've done the washer thing before on a 30-06 since they have a longer neck. Did not notice any difference in accuracy so stopped for a while.

Will try your suggestion next time I load a 30-06 or 270 since the washer I have only fits on that size case, not the 300 or 338.

Also will try hart's suggestion about pushing the case up in the shell holder.

That's what I love about this reloading, start with a problem and the solutions can lead to epiphany's.