I've been shooting Hodgdon's 4350 in my Remington 700 30-06 for the last few months. I've done optimal charge weight (my load development method) testing and have found that 57.5 grains of the H4350 shoots extremely well, and is quite forgiving of case variations (as OCW loads are developed to be). I've held 1/4 MOA from the bench with this load about 75% of the time, and I blame myself for the 1/2" groups. The rifle is free floated, glass bedded, and the trigger is set at 3 pounds.

Using Remington, Winchester nickel, and virgin Winchester brass cases, all mixed into the same group, I've shot 2/3 MOA groups at 335 yards on two seperate occasions with the H4350 charge of 57.5 grains. Even though the Remington cases weighed ten grains more than the virgin Winchester cases, the groups still broke 2/3 MOA. Additionally, CCI 200 and CCI BR primers were used in this hodge-podge grouping effort, the BR's in the Winchester nickel cases (two shots) and the 200's in the Remington cases (two shots) and the Winchester virgin case (one shot).

Suffice it to say that I'd been very happy with the performance of the rifle and the load.

But we always want more, don't we?

The Nosler manual says that IMR's 4350 was their most accurate powder tested with the 165 grain bullets. They show a charge weight of 57.0 grains of IMR 4350 as being max. The Hodgdon 4350 charge they recommend as most accurate (and max, by the way) is 57.5 grains, which happens to be the charge I came up with in OCW tests.

I couldn't stand it, I tried the 57 grain charge of IMR 4350 that Nosler recommended. It wasn't bad, but the 57.5 grain charge of H4350 did considerably better. The 57 grain charge of IMR 4350 behind the 165 grain Sierra Gamekings shot about 3/4 MOA in twenty or so shots of testing.

But a trend emerged.

I noted that the groups with the 57 grain IMR 4350 charge were making "semi-circular" patterns. I'd noted this with other rifles--chambered in .243 and .270--and each time, a half grain of additional powder brought the groups to a phenominal level of performance, perhaps onto a better harmonic node, or simply to a more uniformly burning powder volume.

So I loaded up twenty rounds using 57.5 grains of IMR 4350 (yes, a half grain over Nosler's listed max). 100 yard testing from the bench netted incredible accuracy. This is a sporter barreled hunting rifle, so 3 shot groups tell me all I need to know about its practical accuracy. Two three shot groups at 100 yards both came in a 1/4 MOA.

Next step was to test at long range, and compare the performance of the H4350 and the IMR 4350 at 425 yards. I don't own a chronograph, so I test velocity conformity and consistency by actually shooting the rounds. I shot one shot of the H4350 charge, then one shot of the IMR 4350 charge, alternating back and forth so as not to disadvantage either recipe with a warm or fouled barrel.

The wind was blowing at 5 to 10 MPH, but was only about a 1/3 value wind from my shooting position. I waited for the lulls, and fired one shot every two to three minutes.

The results were quite revealing. Although both of these load recipes shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards, one was a very clear winner at 425 yards.

The Hodgdon 4350 charge shot a 1.5 MOA (a little over 6 inches) group, strung vertically. Width was about 2 1/2 inches, which wasn't bad. This would certainly take a deer if the shot could be properly executed.

The IMR 4350 load was so damned consistent I shot two additional shots just to prove that the three shot 1.5" group wasn't a fluke. Those two shots moved left enough to open the group up to 3 3/4", and I believe the wind did that, because the vertical spread of this group was an incredible 1 1/4" in height.

And so I have a new load for my 30-06, to be used when temperature extremes aren't expected. Yes the Hodgdon Extreme 4350 would probably be the better choice if it were below zero or above 95, but in either of those cases, my ass will be at home, I ain't that dedicated.

IMR 4350 is a helluva performer in my 30-06. I can't fail to give credit to vintage Remington 700's and Sierra's excellent Gamekings, but the IMR 4350 took an already incredible load a step beyond.

I'm using Winchester brass, twice fired, Remington 9 1/2 primers, and an OAL of 3.345". The rifle is a 1972 Remington 700 ADL.

Of course I'll repeat this test at least once more to ensure that these results are repeatable. It appears that the IMR 4350 charge is holding a much more consistent velocity than the H4350 charge is.

Dan Newberry
green 788

That's outstanding shooting on your part Dan. Really outstanding.

Since I like imr I am happy with your conclusion but there are so many variables.

Thanks for the compliments, Don. I was shooting prone using a large flat rock and three heavy sandbags. If I know I'm not on my game when I go the the field, I don't waste any more material than is necessary to know that I'm twitching, or lighting isn't conducive to good target shooting, or whatever. I was also using markers on the target board to ensure that the scope was leveled properly.

Things came together pretty well this afternoon, except for the light wind.

IMR 4350 is IMR's best selling powder, and may well be the best selling powder in America.

I think I know now why I've missed three groundhogs at 410, 410, and 435 yards! It appears that my H4350 load is a little sporadic at longer ranges.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Dan -

quote:

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I don't own a chronograph

---

Are you kidding?!?!?!?! Please e-mail your address to me and I'll send you one. How can you NOT own a chronograph. Why, that's, that's (sputtering) un-American, or, certainly un-reloader'ish.

R-WEST

It's nice to see someone do such extensive testing to prove a point. Your testing only confirms my feeling that IMR-4350 is THE powder for the .30-06 with 165 to 168 grain bullets.

(I use 56.6 grains of the stuff behind a 168 bullet for 2800 fps; also use 55.0 grains of it behind a 180 bullet for 2750 fps.)

Funny how with all the great new powders that have hit the market in the past couple of years that a 50+ year-old powder is still holding it's own!

R West, Thanks for the offer, I'll probably get a chronograph later on this year. Your generosity is appreciated, but I can well afford to buy my own so I won't take advantage of your kindness.

Curiously, though, what kind of chrono do you have, and what might you be wanting for it? Maybe we can work out a trade? I might have something of interest to you laying around...

Steve, Thanks for the comments. I'll have to admit that I was amazed at the results. Perhaps other folks would get better results from thier rifles out of H4350, but for this rifle it's IMR from now on! The IMR 4350 must really be turning out some low ES's to get a vertical spread of only an inch at 425 yards...

Of course I can't say that definitively, since I don't have a chronograph!

Thanks for the replies,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Nope, you are Wrong! H-414 is THE powder for the 30-06 and 165gr bullets. My loads chroned 2900fps from a 22" Howa, and did 3/4" at 200yds.

I have been reloading going on thirty five years. In my experience the IMR loadings have almost always outperformed the Hodgdon clones when it comes to accuracy. FWIW.

The great Carlos Hathaway didn't use any thing but 4895 in his .30 cal.

That was Carlos Hathcock, not Hathaway!

Ms. "Hathaway" was Mr. Drysdale's secretary on the Beverly Hillbilly's!



Dan

Dan - I've always used Hodgdon's version, but, reading your notes, I'm going to do a more thorough workup with IMR. Don't have access to a range longer than 275 yards, so, I never really tried the long stuff like you did.

My chrono's are the "econo" class (note I didn't say "cheap" ) Chrony models. They only cost around $100 or less, so, I doubt you have anything inexpensive enough to make a fair trade. Of course, that's also why I made the offer - I can look magnanimous, and not have to spend a lot to do it

As much shooting as you obviously do, I can't imagine you not having a chrono. They are really neat, and they tell you a lot about your loads, especially when you start getting close to max. I know my eyes sure were opened when I first started using one.

R-WEST

Thanks again, R West. I have a birthday coming up in November, so maybe I'll put an order in for a 65 dollar Chrony!

Just judging from the information on the target at 425 yards, it looks like the IMR powder is generating tighter velocities. Of course since you do use a chronograph, I'd imagine that you wouldn't need to shoot at extended ranges to tell whether your ES was way off with the H4350 or not.

I don't suppose the special "Extreme" coating is doing anything to impede consistency, but I guess it's possible. All I know is that inside 300 yards the Hodgdon 4350 does a superb job, but it vertically strung at 425 yards.

I will test these two loads once again to be sure what I've noted isn't a fluke. The last trip to my 100 yard range, from the bench, saw the first two shots of the IMR load go into the same hole, barely even oblonging it. Shot three printed just to the right of this hole, touching. I've noted that as the factory Remington 22" barrel heats up, it begins to move the shots to the right, to the tune of 3/4 MOA if I shoot five shots without adequate time for cooling.

If you do any chrono testing of the 57.5 grain charges of these two powders, please post the data if you wouldn't mind.

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Thinking about this some more I feel you have to take an average of hundreds of rifles to compare any two powders.

That said I am a big fan of the imr line and see no reason to use others after trying them.

I would sure like to "try" another keg of H4831 however!

Dan, here is another thought for you. Although I don't know how you can do much better, try some AA4350 (or XMR4350). I have found it to be "equal in every way to IMR4350" just as Accurate Arms says and it is about $2/lb cheaper here in Toto land. It is the same powder, different lot. I use the AA version for all of my work-up loads and it is just as consistant.

Very interesting results. Thanks for posting them. I have not done much testing with my 30-06 (push feed M70), the first combination I tried shot great. I'm shooting 3/8 to 1/2" groups @ 100 yards w/ 165 gr Hornady BTSP and 57.5 grains H4350 & win primers. Haven't tested many longer shots, although I will in the next couple weeks. Good information to know.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, guys.

Yes, the 57.5 grain charge of 4350 will shoot tight in most bolt action 30-06 rifles I'm familiar with. In fact, if you have a bolt action 30-06 which won't shoot this recipe well I'd be surprised. (And you may actually want to have it checked by a 'smith! )

I really like the Hodgdon powder's "Extreme" rating (temperature stability) but it's hard to turn away from the long range performance (small extreme spreads) of the IMR powder.

I've just loaded forty more of the 57.5 grain IMR 4350 loads, with the 165 grain Sierra Gamekings and Remington 9 1/2 primers. Good stash!

Dan Newberry
green 788

My load is 56 grains of IMR 4350, Win primer, 180 Hornady "spire point". It's done everything I've asked of it---taking bighorn sheep, mtn goat, elk or deer. It's accurate I can have a 4 shot clover leaf & a 1/2 flyer at 100 yards. My rifle is a Model 700 LH with a 2.5 X 8 Leupold Var III. I'm a happy camper !!!

One of the techs at Sierra recommended the 56 grain charge of IMR 4350 with their 180 grain Gamekings. I tested it, and it did work as advertised. I understand a lot of folks are getting good performance from this recipe. That's a max charge according to many manuals, but most good performers do fall into this category.

Thanks for the post,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Dan,

I dont know how you do it, i cant get those kind of groups @ 200 yds.. I need to get to the range more, or better yet get my own range.. Nice shooting!

Incidentally Speer #12 shows 58 grns IMR 4350 as max load.

Id like to see the same powder test with 180 grn bullets.

56gr of I4350 with 180gr Hornady SP works well for me!

Westernhunter,

I shot that group from the prone position, laying down on a large flat rock, using sandbags front and rear. The rifle is virtually locked on target when you shoot this way.

I think recoil control is the key to keeping the groups tight, especially at long range. Keeping the same amount of shoulder pressure on the butt, same amount of cheekweld in the same place, same follow-through on the trigger, etc., will get the most from the rifle.

Also, having a good day helps a lot! I can't shoot like this every trip out, but some folks can.

Thanks for the compliments. Here's something to think about, though. I've had a few loads which I thought were "the bomb," only to find that when I stretched the range out a bit, they fell apart. I was shooting 59.2 grains of H4350 (very hot) behind my 165 grain Sierra Gamekings. This load was 1/4 MOA at 100 yards from the bench. It went to only MOA at 200 yards, and 1.5 MOA at 300 yards. The recoil dynamics of that rifle from the prone position just weren't letting me group well with that load.

Try the 57.5 grain IMR 4350/165 grain Sierra Gameking load at long range, and see if things don't tighten up. Had I only been shooting the H4350 load on the day mentioned at the head of this thread, I'd have probably thought my shooting was off.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Ballpark velocity: using a Chrony, I get 2800fps with Nosler 165 Partitions and 57grs of H4350. The rifle is a 22" Ruger #1A. I've been very happy with the Hogdon, but will try the IMR next time.

FWIW: I've had good luck with Nosler 150gr BTs and 60grs of H4831SC at 2700fps - a 200 yd 3 shot group at 13/16"

You really need a chrono. Nearly all the published or advised loads seem to come out of my guns a lot different than described. For example, Waters got 2832fps out of the 150gr load above with his 24" barrel.

You're right, TD, I do need a chrony, and I plan to get one soon.

That's a pretty quick little Ruger there, to be sure. My rifle has a 22" tube as well, so your velocities are encouraging.

I fairly sure from the trajectory of my load that it's doing about 2750 to 2775 fps.

Most folks I'm familiar with have gotten their tightest groups with the H4350/165's using 57.5 grains of powder. What kind of groups are you getting with the 57.0 grain load?

Dan

I had to go up to 59 grains of H4350 to get 2780 fps out of my Mountain Rifle. But that load is quite accurate, longs as I don't shoot too many rounds at one time. Been working some with the Alliant powders lately. Velocity is a little higher but haven't got the same accuracy.

NoCAL

I have been reloading for 2 years or so and do not have a chronny either... I know, I know, I MUST have one to acieve the best data. I have planned on buying one for some time now, just havent. I shoot an 06 too so I will print this out so that I dont forget what others have found. I do not have the scientific mind to keep all of the numbers straight Hopefully one of these days, I will get more into the science of shooting. For now, I vary powder weight, bullets, primers, etc. Thanks to everyone that has added to this post, I truly appreciate it.

Well put me on the list of the deprived individuals with "NO CHRONOGRAPH " as well. As much as Id like to have one I still think that they are more of a luxury than a nessesity. Especially when several load manuals will show nearly identical velocities for x powder charge with x barrel length.

There are a lot of things that can be done to develope loads without knowing your EXACT velocity.

Westernhunter,

You're right to observe that a load must ultimately prove itself in practice. Good numbers are no more than that, merely good numbers. Performance in application is everything.

I'm reminded of the dragrace team in our area that spent a lot of time and money having their engines "dyno'd" to see how much horsepower they were putting out at various rpm levels. Yes, they spent a tidy sum of cash on an engine dynometer.
But when it got down to green lights and asphalt, they discovered that it took a lot more than good dyno numbers to deliver the goods, being bested time and time again by cars with less horsepower, but which obviously used it more effectively !

In truth, the final proving ground is the target or the dead game animal. Lacking a chronograph (which is arguably just a distraction) pushes us to get on about the business of proving the round in its intended application.

That said, I'll probably pick one up just to play with sometime soon...

Y'all take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

In my Weatherby ULW, I've used 57.5 gr of H4350 with the 180 gr Sierra SBT and Hornady BTSP. Velocity at 35 F. with the Sierra is 2778 fps, with the Hornady is 2842 fps. The Sierra 5-shot group at 100Y is 1 MOA, the Hornady is 3/4 MOA.
Hodgdon lists this load on their website, and pressure-wise it's under SAAMI-max.

I've used 56.0 gr of H4350 with the Sierra 200 SBT for 2723 fps at 35 F. Accuracy at 100Y 5-shot group is 3/4 MOA.

I've always used WLR primers and never had a misfire. Perhaps another brand would be more accurate?

Dan,

If I read your post correctly it looks like you also made a primer change with the IMR loads. To verify your findings you should use the same primers for both loads and or switch primers to validate your suspisions of ES. I always use cci primers but they are not known for being very hot. It's possible the Rem primer gave you better ignition.

Excuse me? "shooting prone, a large flat rock and three sandbags" Welcome to "Saturday Morning Live" after Friday night and too many Buds. Is this a serious forum about accuracy or a "me got a reloading tool and now I are a expert too."

I found with 165gr Hornadys,IMR4350 worked better than H-4350 in a couple of 30.06s.I use the slower H4350 with 180 gr.Try the SSTs,they close things up.

Rusty,

You might do well to try shooting in the real world once in a while...

I left you alone in the concentricity thread when you opined that BR shooters didn't use concentricity gauges so nobody else should either.

Perhaps I shouldn't have been so kind.

Dan

I'll take this opening to say "tsk, tsk" to Rusty as well. I almost go caught up in bitching at people for stuff I didn't agree with. However wrong or right I was I quickly realized that it wasn't welcome, needed, appreciated...

Rusty, I'll add to Holmes' and green788's comments by saying: Did you closely read green788's original post? However he obtained his data, and if he shot while doing a headstand, is irrelevant when you really follow his process. He's got some seriously dedicated and scientific work going there in Virginia.

Wow Thanks, guys!

TBS, I completely missed your post last night regarding the CCI's and Rem 9 1/2's.

I had intended to retest these powders with identical primers, but I let January sneak up on me... You have an excellent point regarding the hotter Remington 9 1/2's--perhaps the Hodgdon would have benefitted from the Remington primer.

R-West did a test, using his chronograph, of the two powders discussed here. He did this basically in response to this thread. He concluded that the Hodgdon gave slightly better numbers from his rifles. Here is that link: http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=006299

Thanks for the continued interest... And guess what? I now have my very own "Chrony." (Can I be in the freakin' club now?? ) My shooting partner moved out of the area, and he was going to sell me his interest in our community Chronograph for 20 bucks, but I couldn't do that to him. I told him to keep it and I bought a new one.

Take care,

Dan

Dan -

quote:

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I now have my very own "Chrony." (Can I be in the freakin' club now?? )

---

Yes you may now join. As the newest member, you'll have to sit in the back, and you'll be responsible for bringing croissants As various members shoot their chronys, get tired of dragging all the pieces around and/or spending forever lining them up to be sure the bullet actually crosses both screens properly, etc.., and drop out of the club, you'll be able to move toward the front.

Dues are $100 annually, please send cash or M.O. (no checks, please) to R-WEST, Inc.

PS - I love the FBI "eyes".

R-WEST

I am getting great accuracy in my Encore with 59gr H4350 and 165gr H-SST's. It is the max load in the Hodgon manual, works for me.

Well... I suppose so. But don't go thinkin' you're hot stuff yet because the REAL club is comprised of those who have shot their Chrony ...

Y'all are killin' me!

I hope to avoid that initiation at least for a month or two~!

Dan