I have a ruger M77 MKll,264 Win mag the load that i am useing is 61grns of H4831sc and CCI 200LR primers and Win brass and brass is trimed to length the loads are all scaled, now the problem is i am having trouble on some of the cases of raising the bolt after firing, not pulling the case out of the chamber just raising the bolt and when i pull the case out of the chamber i will push the empty case back in and i will have trouble pushing the bolt down now remember this is not on every shell and it is not the same shell casing every time it was doing this when i was loading with H870 also, any help would be greatly appreciated, this is a new gun ,only about 200 rounds threw it

What bullet weight?

Hard bolt lift is traditionally a high pressure sign. How do the primers look?

If this isn't a pressure issue, I would have a gunsmith examine the bolt lugs and recesses. You may have an issue there...

You can mark the rear faces of the lugs with a permanent marker, and then close the bolt on an empty case, and then carefully remove the bolt and look at the rear faces of the locking lugs. You should see an even amount of wear on both marked areas. Often you will see only one lug bearing, and the other doesn't touch.

A gunsmith can true this up for you. However, on my Remington ADL 30-06 I simply put a smear of lapping paste on the lug that was touching, and chambered an empty and worked the bolt up and down about twenty times. I removed the bolt, cleaned the lapping paste from the bolt and the recess, remarked with the marker, and tested again. Do this a couple of times and you'll get even bearing on both lugs.

Many gunsmiths will tell you that this isn't the way to lap your bolt lugs, and I respect that. That said, my 30-06 is an honest 1/2 MOA rifle now, and has suffered no ill effects from this process...

Dan

i am using 140 grn hornadys interlock, primers look good, that is what is so puzzeling everything looks good

Seems that the load is too hot for your rifle.

Hodgdon lists 61 gr as max for H4831. They do not list SC4831.

Just cut the load back.

That is a warm load. I would do as Savage99 suggests, and back down just a bit.

Do check your lugs to be sure they are bearing evenly...

Dan

green788 one lug is bearing the other is not i will lap it like you said before i go out in the morning but i already have 20 rounds loaded . The H4831 and the H4831SC are the same, the SC is just a shorter cut to make it easier for metering but i will load the next batch down to 59grns and try that also.

Willow,

I think you'll notice a huge improvement in accuracy after you get the lugs even. As I said, this has worked for me and it has worked for others as well.

I think I would also load up a half dozen rounds with 57 grains of IMR 4350 behind the 140's. You may want to fire one test round at 56 grains and look for pressure signs. If you find none, fire a five shot group with 57 grains of IMR 4350 and see how it goes.

If you note a "circular" (but MOA or close to it in size) pattern to the group with the 57 grain charge, bump the charge up to 57.5 grains and that should tighten it up even more...

Let us know what you discover...

Dan Newberry
green 788

i will have to get some IMR4350 tomorrow or friday i will try it and let you know

Green 788,

And what about the headspace issues?

Good question, 1894...

Since you're only lapping about .001" to .002" off of the lug, that would not be near enough to cause a headspace problem.

By inserting the fired casing into the chamber before lapping the lug, you allow the casing to apply the rearward pressure to the long lug. If there is too much headspace, the lug won't bear hard enough to lap down significantly. And of course the amount of wear with each rotation of the bolt would become less and less when the short lug (the one that wasn't touching) began to touch. I hope this is making sense...

From the sound of what Willow is experiencing, I would surmise that his rifle would benefit from this. It sounds like the headspace may even be a bit too tight. Not always a bad thing, of course, but in this case that might be causing the hard bolt lift. (The lug that is engaging is taking all of the pressure, and slamming hard into the recess, perhaps sticking itself in the process).

And I feel sure that his accuracy will improve, though I'm not certain as to the integrity of the load recipe he is using. The 57 grain IMR 4350 load is normally an excellent performer with the 140's in the .264.

As already mentioned, many gunsmiths will tell you not to lap a bolt lug in this manner--but others actually recommend and practice it. (Gunsmiths are a lot like doctors, they're opinions often conflict.)

I learned this particular trick from a 'smith a few years ago, and I've yet to harm a rifle by lapping down a "long" bolt lug.

Dan

Willow I would suggest you should try powders slower than H4831 not faster. Imr 7828 is good RL 25, H1000 and the new Retumbo powder from Hodgdon will also work well.

Dan
I lapped the lugs then went and got some IMR4350 loaded like you said everything worked great no hard to lift bolt i shot 20 rounds and not on any of the shells was the bolt hard to lift.Only thing different is i used rem brass but i will use win brass tomorrow with 140 grn core lokts im out of Hornady 140's. I want to say thanks to everyone for your help (you are a great bunch of guys)

That's good news, Willow.

Did you try the 57 grain IMR 4350 load yet, or were the 20 rounds you fired the earlier recipe you were using?

How large were the groups you got today?

As Hotcore mentions, it would be a good idea to load one or two cartridges at 55 and 56 grains before continuing to the 57 grain charge. If you note no pressure signs with the first 57 grain charge, continue shooting for group. Remember to allow two minutes or so between shots for the barrel to cool.

Let us know how it goes...

Dan Newberry
green 788

yes i did work up the load of imr4350 to 57 grn and i will work it up again with both
the rem brass and the win brass with the cor lokts I did have a group of about 1 to 2 inch with a couple of flyers but i was more worried about the bolt lift being easy than the group, but i will work up the loads today and let you know how the rifle likes the combo of the core lokts and the imr4350

Willow,

Thanks for keeping us posted. If you're not seeing any pressure signs at 57 grains, you may want to load 6 or 7 cartridges with 57.6 grains and see if that doesn't bring things "into round" for you. If there are no bedding issues with the rifle, you should be able to find a powder charge in that neighborhood that will not generate flyers. Once the group is fairly well rounded, you can then go to OAL adjustments (seating depth) to tune the load to your barrel's best harmonic.

Thanks for the continued info.

Dan

i loaded up some shells this morning with the imr4350 2 at 55grn & 2 at 56grns and the rest at 57grns no problems with any of the loads i shot 3 5 shot groups but i couldnt get any better than 2 inch's on any of the groups and i had 2 flyers . i cant seat the cor lokts out any further because of the length of the magazine. i know one thing ruger triggers are still lousy and the only way to fix them is with a 16lb hammer. i will have to buy a timney tirgger for this one just like i had to for the other one.it was good shooting weather though 10 above zero with no wind.

Willow,

Are the groups 2 inches with or without the flyers?

What kind of forearm and stock rest are you using?

What kind of groups were you getting with the H4831?

Thanks,

Dan

Dan
two groups had a flyer a piece,for a forarm rest i use a couple of pieces of wood with two towels over them,the 4831 shot 2 to 3" groups i will try the load at 57.6 later today.

Are you using a sandbag under the stock of the rifle?

Dan

Dan
no nothing under the stock just got it against the shoulder i went to the range this afternoon my last group i got 5 shots in a 1 1/2 group the 6th shot was just on the out side of the 1 1/2 mark and i cant say there was any kind of a pattern.i will go again on Sunday.say Dan do you have the velocity for that load of 57.6.

Dude!

If you're shooting 1.5 MOA without a rear bag, you're a lot better than I am!

Matter of fact, I'm jealous...

The speed from a 24" barrel should just exceed 3000 fps, so it'll get the job done.

Seriously, though... If you're getting 1 1/2" groups of five shots without a rear bag, I'm impressed.
Get yourself a sandbag for the front (lay it over the blocks--the cloth isn't "dead" enough), and use a seperate sandbag to rest the rear of the stock on. Adjust the point of aim by sliding the rear bag forward and backward.

You can buy "play sand" in 40 and 50 pound bags from Home Depot, Lowe's, and many department stores. Just cut the legs off a pair of old jeans, sew up one end on each, fill them with sand and tie them off. You can actually connect two such bags with a length of heavy nylon rope or strap and carry the bags over your shoulder if you're going into the varmint field.

It's important to keep the same amount of shoulder pressure on the butt of the rifle, and the front rest should be in the same location for every shot. If there is a sling swivel and sling, disconnect it if you can, as it will drag the front rest on recoil and distort the groups.

As you have mentioned, a lighter trigger will help also, but that isn't totally necessary once you get used to the pull you have.

All things considered, I think you're pretty much there with the load...

But do keep us posted on your progress. I'm sure several folks are interested by now...

Good shootin'

Dan Newberry
green 788

Only problem i see with my 264 (Older Remington 700 144xxx serial) is barrel heating up and throwing the next rounds higher straight up in a line. If i let the barrel cool off inbetween shots, i can keep a 3/4" group at 100yards.

The only time i had a problem with a sticky bolt was with some reloads a friend gave me that were max and not trimmed. That action seems to be a bit tight compared to most factory actions.

And as Green said, use sandbags for a front and back rest. I have a 5gal bucket with 6 or 7 bags, etc for a range 'box'. Shooting a bunch of 5 shot test loads is so much fun with the 264. You can go home deaf and with a bum shoulder I am always amused by the comments from the other people at the range about the noise produced by the 264. Last time i was at the range, the one guy kept taking his ear protection off and i kept reminding him to put them back on. After the 3rd reminder i let one rip.. he didnt take them off anymore. Now all we need is someone to get a brainstorm and put a boss on some 264s

Dan
i went and bought some hornady 140 inter locks yesterday and loaded a few up 57.4grns-imr 4350 and set them .008 off the lands,before i forget , yesterday some one in another topic was talking about setting the dies for your rifle so i went to that web page to see how it was done so i did that before i loaded any shells, then went to the range the first group i shot i had to ajust the scope because i was shooting the core lokts the last time, so the first group of 5 was three touching and the other two and inch out,the next was a four shot group and the four were touching inside a 1 inch square i didnt shoot the fifth because i couldnt remember if i set the bullet .005 or .008 off the lands (getting old) so i had to bring it home to measure it. i have a keeper in this one
I Thank All of you again

[ 01-05-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: willow ]

That's great news, Willow.

I felt like 57 to 57.5 grains of the IMR 4350 would do it for you, and I'm glad that it did.

By the way, one individual in particular was "looking over our shoulders," shall we say, with regard to your bolt lapping.

Your excellent groups should stand as evidence that you did the job well ...

Thanks for the update,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Good work Dan

I have been following this thread since it started and can only say, "Good Job". My hat is off to Green 788. It is refreshing to follow something positive.

Willow, you will enjoy using the 264 on those Big Northern Whitetails. The load you have will work great. If you every want to squeeze a little more velocity out of it, try H1000. Hogdon lists 68gr as max for 140 gr bullet. It is the only clean burning powder I have had produce 3200 fps in a 24 in barrel with accuracy. But for now it looks like you are set.

Saludos..Frank