By all accounts, this is a pretty good group and I think the load is good. But the reason I posted this is that this is what the gun does consistently. 4 shots or so in one hole then 1 out of the "group." I know that some will say that the one that is out is still part of the group, and I agree.

Does anyone have any input or idea why this happens consistently?

The shot that is out is the first shot of the group and the actual second shot down the bore from the cold state. I think that maybe this is the best the gun can do. My rest is rock solid. I use 2- 25# bags of shot under the comb for a rear rest and the gun is on a Harris bipod. Folks have told me the bipod could be the problem. I shot this group at my club in the tunnel; a 100yd underground range, so no wind effect.







I've read on the Forum that "conventional wisdom" says if you have a good group and 1 "flyer", that you should back off the bullet from the lands. If you have a fair group that needs tightening, then seat closer (via Woods). This may fall into the first category or just be as good as the gun can do.

Any other thoughts?

That's pretty good shooting by anyone's standards. Now try a ten shot group and you may answer your own question.

So a 10 shot string would be the next step?

Are the thoughts about seating depth consistent with what is normally done?

I'm getting really tired with load development; searching for "the load." This is the third one I thought would be good. With the other 2, I get back to the bench, load a few and they shoot totally different than the test batch. I think this may be better as all of my brass is now more consistent since I annealed and trimmed. I did not weight-sort though...........

.

Benchrest shooters don't use bipods.

If you are trying to shoot groups in the .3's
I would shoot off bags on the front, or better
yet a good tripod type rest that has a bag on
it. 8 ounce trigger or less will help too.

That's dang good shootin' off of a bipod that
has rubber feet on it.

.

I shoot a lot of rifles off of bipods. one has to make sure that there isn't any of the barrel touching the stock with them .

I seen groups change with a bipod if one puts more pressure on stock when one shoots with them. I go prone with my rifles I use with bipods and have some one run a dollar bill under the barrel to make sure Iam not putting pressure on the stock making it touch the barrel.

I have glass bedded many a fore arm to make sure they were stiff enough to use with a bipod.

Thanks guys,

I have to shoot this gun from a bipod as for the only reason I have it is to shoot a steel target game. The targets are as long as 900 yards.

I'm trying to make the rifle as accurate as possible, obviously, so any misses can't be blamed on it or the load. I don't think there are any issues mechanically that are effecting the accuracy: it's pillar bedded, has a Mark IV on it and has a good barrel. All the work has been done by a reputable guy here in town that I trust and have seen his great work before.

I don't have the experience to know what to do with this load from here except try them out to 1000 yards at each distance and see how they shoot. I think it's a good load and a good group but that 1 shot out worries me. Maybe I'm expecting too much.

Like stated before, I had a couple of other trys that looked pretty good at 100 but when I shot them at 300 and out further they went to hell. I haven't tried this one way out there yet, so we'll see.

I was hoping to get input from some of the knowledgeable folks here about what they would do with this load. Maybe I'm already on the right track or folks think I'm joking about wanting input.......
I'm gonna load some and try them in the morning if it's calm enough and will report back. I'll post pics if they suck and maybe someone will know what to do.

Thanks again for the replies!

you might end up doing what most hi-power shooters do and have a 1to300 yd load a 600 yd load and a 1,000 yd load.

You might try testing the rifle in a standard benchrest with a bunny ear rear bag. With the solid heavy bags under the comb you might have a tendency to lean on the comb with your face. Variations of pressure from your face bend the stock different amounts and affect the recoil of each shot a little differently. Any way try not to hang your head on the comb. That is 15 lbs that may not always be applied the same way.
If it shoots better off of a bench rest you will just have to work on your bipod technique.

Thanks so much. I never thought of having different loads tuned to different ranges! That might be too confusing for the game I'm shooting. You only have 3 minutes to engage 6 targets, dialing each and holding off for wind. That's enough work!

SR.......

That's funny. This morning I thought my comb was way too low so I built it up with moleskin! I may have to take it off now....!

Hey rcamuglia, Looks like some fine shooting to me too. That might be the best the combination is able to do, or trying different Seating Depths could possibly change it a bit. But it would be realy hard for "me" to do any better.

Standard things for me would be using some kind of Match Grade Bullets. I've used Sierra for a long time to Benchmark rifles, but there are a lot of excellent Bullets available today.

I have much better groups shooting at the Corner of a Black Square than I do shooting at anything round. Dosen't mean you would, but it helps me to aim at the corner. I know the scope "is not canted" and I can sung the reticle right up next to each side while focusing on the point of the corner.

Parallax is something I occasionally "forget about", which is sure to spread my shots. I've found that I can't go by the specific distance numbers on the Adjustment Knob/Ring, but have to dial it in for my eyes. They do get me in the ballpark though.

In another thread I mentioned adjusting the Point-of-Impact so I'm not seeing the Holes, during the actual shooting.

When I want the Trigger to feel like it has less Pull Weight, I reach forward and pull on the Trigger Guard with my Trigger Finger for 4-6sec. Then move back to the Trigger and it feels much lighter, though it is still the same.

And I Tune my own Triggers. I go into a dark room with no noise at all, and as slow as I possibly can, ease the Trigger back(Dry Firing). I focus on the feel and if I can detect "ANY" movement before the Sear Releases, then my Trigger needs a bit more work. I want this same Sear Release if the Pull is adjusted for a Light Weight or Heavier for Glove weather.

I Dry Fire a lot.

Scope Power makes a HUGE difference in my groups, especially at distance(but even up close). Some are 20x Variables and I can see where more power would be an advantage for some shooting. I eventually reach a point where Mirage comes to play, but I can use "some" Mirage to my advantage. Not real sure how to describe it, but I eventually recognize a Wind Range that allows me to compensate a bit for it.

The actual Reticle has an influence on my groups as well. I only shoot Targets for adjusting loads, developing loads and practicing for Hunting. I no longer shoot any competition, unless it is to see who buys Supper. So, my Reticles tend to be either a Heavy Duplex(I have a bunch), Mil-Dot, Mil-DotBar and Illuminated. If I was shooting Competition, I "might" go for a Thin Duplex and Target Knobs or Mil-DotBar and Target Knobs.

But, I'll guess some of the Benchrest guys would have more useful information for me, and I'd seek them out, by attending their Matches, hanging around their Boards and seeing what they do.

I'd determine what Cartridge they are using and have one of my current Remingtons rebarrelled and Blue Printed by Davey Tooley or John Lewis. Change to Competition Die Sets and Trick-Out my Cases completely.
-----

But, once I get to a certain Accuracy Level, the only thing that reduces my group size with my Hunting Grade rifles is lots and lots of Trigger Time actually shooting. For me, it is impossible to shoot 25-XXX number of shots, only 1-2 days per week and the groups get smaller.

Best of luck to you.

I had an Encore 30/06 barrel that threw the first 1 or 2 shots out of a clean barrel. It turned out there was a minor (too minor for me to see) defect in the crown. I returned the barrel to Thompson/Center who fixed the crown and fire lapped the barrel. I now have a very accurate barrel with no so called "flyers" (how I hate that word).

My theorey is that at times the tool used for cutting the crown is slightly dull and a small burr is formed at the muzzle. The first couple of shots fill the burr with jacket material and then the barrel shoots better; I've done no research on this, it's just my theorey.

I also don't think a 10 shot group is needed to diagnose your problem. If you've already seen this trend in two or three 5 shot groups, then you've essentially already shot a 10 or 15 shot group.

Wow HC! That is a ton of great information and I truely appreciate the time you put in thinking about it and posting it!!! You are the REAL DEAL. You are a wealth of info and I know that I and everyone on the forum appreciate you.

I've always had my doubts, you know, with the way you refer to published writers as "hacks" and the magazines they write for as "rags", but those have been eliminated.

Have you written anything for a publication? If not you should start. I know that sharing your accumulated knowledge here is great, but why not earn a buck or two in the process!

All the info people share here is great and I've learned a lot in the past 6 months of reading and posting here.

My "tuning with seating depth" theory has been abandoned. You all are right; there are no shortcuts to a good load. I was able to tune some good loads with it though and quickly. They were good enough to hunt with etc... .

SUCCESS!!!!

The load that I posted this thread about has turned out to be very good. I developed it the "Old Fashioned" way. I just got back from the range and here are the results.............

300 yards!









Here's what it did at 400:







Here it is at 600 yards:







I think I'm finished for a while.

quote:

HC ... You are the REAL DEAL. You are a wealth of info and I know that I and everyone on the forum appreciate you.

Yup! Plus one on that!

Nice shootin' RC!
Pity the wind blew that one shot.

Hey rcamuglia, I appreciate the kind words, but all my info is really old stuff. I was very serious about suggesting a person listen to the current BenchRest folks, like bfrshooter, flaco and one other guy I've seen post recently but can't remember his name at all - pitiful! Maybe "Big xxxx"?

All the new stuff has to be improvements over the old stuff because of the amazing groups they shoot. Take the good stuff they do, that would apply to a Hunting rifle, and shoot a lot. Then you can come back and give me some new tricks.

By the way, very nice shooting.

Thank you Gentlemen!

This is really one of the first rifles I've owned that is not a hunting rifle. It's a Winchester model 70 (pre-64 action) with "Classic Sharpshooter" stamped on the barrel (which is a big, heavy, stainless SOB). It's out of the Winchester Custom Shop and has an H-S Precision stock. I put a Leupold Mark IV with the TMR reticle on it and had a muzzle brake installed. There's no recoil with any load I've shot. Honestly, you could shoot 1000 rounds of .300WM and feel no effect! I'm now a believer in the tactical muzzle brakes. It weighs 12 pounds! I got it in excellent used condition from a widow here in town. Her husband was Freddy Prinze's Father. He was a long range guy and had 57 custom rifles that they sold as a result of his passing among tons of reloading supplies and a "box car" of factory ammo.......so I'm told. This gun was one of 8 that was left. I'm sure some beautiful rifles went fast....

Anyway, I'm glad to see what I'm capable of with a decent tool.

Hot Core, I'm serious about you writing for some publication out there. You should submit something. The BS about "old info" is meaningless. What you have accumulated over time deserves to be shared......and you should try to be compensated. This game seems to be your love.

My father is a musician. He says a teacher used to tell him "so you think you're good and you're coming up with your own compositions? Just remember, everything you are doing on that horn has been done millions of times before; nothing you are doing hasn't been done before!"

What's new is old and what's old is new!

It's easy to tell who the "top dogs" are here on the Forums and who knows what they are talking about. You all are helping me more than you know and a great source of entertainment!