I've read a method of doing this and would like to know if any of ya'll have tried this.

It entails taking the load you have settled on after development and shooting a 5-shot group on the target. You put your rifle away and come back another day. That day, you place the first target under a clean target and shoot a 5-shot group. You now have a target with 10 shots on it and one with 5. You save the 5-shot target and note atmospheric conditions, lighting etc...

You return another day at a different time, temp, etc and put a new clean target on top of the one that has 10 shots on it and shoot 5. Remove the top target. You now have 2 sheets with 5 shots each and one with 15.

You return to the range and repeat this at least 4 more times and try to shoot at different times of the day, different temperatures and atmospheric conditions.

You then evaluate the target that has all of the shots on it.

Has anyone done this or would it be too depressing!!!!???

Rather than depressing, probably a real eye opener. With depression rapidly following.


Bear in Fairbanks

In industry anything less than 100 data points is considered inconclusive. Once the baseline is established a 3 point movement is a tend.
What most folks do with their rifles is to record trends without a baseline.

quote:

Originally posted by Swamp_Fox:
In industry anything less than 100 data points is considered inconclusive. Once the baseline is established a 3 point movement is a tend.
What most folks do with their rifles is to record trends without a baseline.

Well...let me rephrase it.....What most folks lack is a damn good course in mathematical statistics.....If we did there'd be far fewer 1/2" groups fired.....

There's theory and there's practice....If one lives in the theoretical world he may never get out hunting.....If one lives only in the practical world he may have a freezer full of venison but never really know what his rifle does!

I'm very fortunate to have lived in both camps and can attest that one needs to live most of his time in the practical world but have a bit of understanding of the theory. Get out to the range and shoot a five shot group....if you like it go hunting and whackem and stackem.....

But if that five shot group happened to be 1/2", don't get on the internet and brag about your 1/2 MOA rifle.....someone might challenge you to put your money where your mouth is and you'll be shelling out big time....

There's been more than once I fired a little cloverleaf group and couldn't reproduce it all week long!

quote:

shooting a 5-shot group on the target. You put your rifle away and come back another day. That day, you place the first target under a clean target and shoot a 5-shot group. You now have a target with 10 shots on it and one with 5. You save the 5-shot target and note atmospheric conditions, lighting etc...

You return another day at a different time, temp, etc and put a new clean target on top of the one that has 10 shots on it and shoot 5. Remove the top target. You now have 2 sheets with 5 shots each and one with 15.

You return to the range and repeat this at least 4 more times and try to shoot at different times of the day, different temperatures and atmospheric conditions.

You then evaluate the target that has all of the shots on it.

For those that want to do this....have a ball....for me it's just plain excessive.!!

I agree Vapo.

If everyone were to do this, reality would rear its ugly head!

I think it would be eye-opening for everyone to do this little experiment. You would be able to see how humidity effects your stock and POI if it is wood. Cold bore shots may not be in the group as well and make the multi-shot target even bigger. All of these things in this test will show the true accuracy ability of your load and your equipment.

Most rifles would be lucky to be MOA IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
All of these things in this test will show the true accuracy ability of your load and your equipment. ...

Actually, I prefer Cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed and then dry patched barrel at ambient conditions. The reason for that is because that is the way theRifle is prepared when I Hunt. I'll never fling 5-shots at a Game animal, so it just doesn't interest me at all.

I do every few years reverify that P-FLR is more accurate for "me" than Neck Sizing by shooting 18-shots or so of each type in a Blind Comparison Test. It generally takes an entire day to fire all of them and I shoot 3-shot groups when doing it just to save some time. And I clean between the 3-shot groups.
-----

That said, if a person is comfortable shooting a 100 shot group, that is what they should do. I'll even guess there will not even be any 1MOA 100-shot groups using the finest BenchRest equipment and techniques.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Actually, I prefer Cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed and then dry patched barrel at ambient conditions. The reason for that is because that is the way theRifle is prepared when I Hunt. I'll never fling 5-shots at a Game animal, so it just doesn't interest me at all.

Here is a pearl of advice....."the way one hunts"

When I sight in the rifle I do not clean the barrel at all....it goes uncleaned the entire season (usually less than five shots) unless I get foreign material in the barrel.....

I want my barrel exactly like it was when I quit shooting at the range!

So now it's clear than one hunter will achieve one measure of accuracy and another hunter with the very same gun and load will achieve a different accuracy.....

We all march to a different drummer!

So we have a new dimension to this thing....

I will take the rifle and load that I settle on to the range several times in different weather conditions and compare targets. I may have to change bullets or powder to get a load that does not wander with changing conditions.

I absolutely agree with the original poster's strategy and apparent objective. When I refer to one of my rifles as a 1.5" rifle, I mean that I can count on it to keep all shots in 1.5". Clean or dirty. Hot or cold. That same rifle will probably turn in a lot of 1/2" groups, but it ain't a 1/2" rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
...Actually, I prefer Cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed and then dry patched barrel at ambient conditions. The reason for that is because that is the way theRifle is prepared when I Hunt. I'll never fling 5-shots at a Game animal, so it just doesn't interest me at all.

I just absolutely hate it when i have to agree with HC but I have to here as this is exactly what I do with my serious hunting rifles. I like to shoot 1 shot per day on different days to the range under varying conditions also. I use the same target but mark the sequence and position of each shot. I like to shoot at 200 yards with 5 shots bench, 5 shots prone with forearm rested over backpack, 5 shots sitting and 5 shots sitting with forarm rested over back pack. I've found most of my moa or sub moa hunting rifles are really close to 2 moa rifles under the varied conditions. To me that is good to know and I've established my own personal maximum shoot ranges based on these tests. In the field knowing the position I have to shoot from and the conditions for the shot I can make a much better choice whether to shoot or not.

Larry Gibson

I'm a POI guy. I don't care what the rifle does after a third shot or a warm barrel. Not realistic.

I usually shoot 5-6 shots a year.

The first one is before the season to figure out where I left my zero, then as many animals as I kill.

Funny, it's usually 1" over at a hundred (you'd think I could remember that) and that shot always hits the 1" point of the triangle above the bullseye. In essence it's a one hole rifle (as are my main hunting rifles- another .270 and a .300 Win).

Same holds true for working up a load (haven't had to in a few years). I shoot off my back porch so I can shoot a group then reload another to make the first cut. Then I tweak it with POI groups taken over the course of a day with cold barrels.

I do clean after the season and shoot 3-4 quick foulers before the season.

That cumlative target idea was outlined by Finn Aagard quite a while back. I don't go to that extreme but I do keep a loose leaf notebook for each rifle and all targets, the good, the bad, and the ugly go into the folder with range and load data written on it.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
... I do keep a loose leaf notebook for ... the good, the bad, and the ugly ...

OK, I'll guess! Flicks of R, Bartsche and larry.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I agree Vapo.

If everyone were to do this, reality would rear its ugly head!

I think it would be eye-opening for everyone to do this little experiment. You would be able to see how humidity effects your stock and POI if it is wood. Cold bore shots may not be in the group as well and make the multi-shot target even bigger. All of these things in this test will show the true accuracy ability of your load and your equipment.

Most rifles would be lucky to be MOA IMO.

Very good post----I build and treat all of my rifles the same albeit a competition rifle or a sporter. Consequently load development process is the same except that with the sporters a 10 shot group fired in 2 to 3 minutes is not required. If everyone did as you have outlined above it would sure open a lot of eyes that is for sure and let’s face it many folks feel very good that a rifle will shoot a 3 shot group once into .5---makes them feel good. Not that feeling good is a bad thing however, on the rare occasion when I have been at a public range doing some testing when I did not want to make the 160 mile round trip to ours folks have walked over to look and commented that ”you don’t need a fancy rifle to shoot small groups mine does it with factory ammo”.

Never once has anyone ever come close to shooting as small of a group as they claim they can LOL! Not to say it cannot be done but there are so many parts of the shooting process that must be perfect to get consistency it is doubtful that putting the trusty Ruger 77 on a wood rest covered with carpet on the front and a folded towel on the rear will allow for these results to be achieved once not to mention repeatedly.

Interesting views. For big game I load a capable bullet to maximum safe velocities and shoot for 1 1/2" at 100 yards. Most come in well under that like my 338-06 with the 225 gr Accubond shown below set up for a grizzly hunt next year. I tend to shoot the larger calibers, 338-06, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62, and have never missed or lost a critter, deer, elk, nilgai, moose, bear, African plains game to eland. One thing I do is get as close as possible before I shoot with my longest shot being a nice bull elk at 280 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
All of these things in this test will show the true accuracy ability of your load and your equipment. ...

Actually, I prefer Cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed and then dry patched barrel at ambient conditions. The reason for that is because that is the way theRifle is prepared when I Hunt. I'll never fling 5-shots at a Game animal, so it just doesn't interest me at all.

I.

I have noticed that some of my rifles seem to hold -0- much better than others and that the cold bore shot is consistent. But when I shoot groups they are not as tight as I would like them to be. But these are hunting rifles. Like you say, 1 maybe 2 of the first shots matter.

I will do this one shot test per day with my hunting rifles and report back. I believe they will start to be more "gem-like" with the 1 shot test than the 3 to 5 shot group test which makes them look mediocre.

I have just adjusted my attitude to the hunting rifle to what is realistic.... 1 consistent cold bore shot.

I believe the posted test will be more applicable to target rifles.

Thanks HC! You just opened my eyes!

Sometimes, especially hunting, it is more important to have confidence it your rifle than to know all the facts.

To maintain POI over time, certain conditions must be met. This requires bolt action, synthetic stock, pillar bedding, free floated barrel. Components all of the same lot number. For POI to walk, use wood stock, presure point on barrel at forearm. Some actions like Ruger #1 like to walk, like the lever actions with wood between receiver and forarm stop. When the forearm wood takes on moisture , it grows. Then shrinks when drying. Get a Mannlicher Stock if you like a different POI at each testing. The Remington 760 & 7600 may just be the perfect rifle for holding POI, except some of the early 760's have the metal pressure point on the end of the forearm.

"What most folks do with their rifles is to record trends without a baseline."

Roger that! For years I've tried to get some folks to understamd that their "wallet" groups are statistical flukes, not at all representitive of their rigs accuracy. I don't know how we could ever obtain a rigs accuracy potentional with certainty but we sure can demonstate our best achievment to date.

Statistical gimmicks like averaging a few good targets to indicate accuracy only serves to let the occasional smaller groups make the real accuracy appear a little better than it actually is. But, REAL accuracy is what we can expect to do everytime. That could better be determined with maybe a hundred round group and recognizing the total spread is the accuracy!

Another plus for those who are concerned about the first shot out of a clean, cold barrel. When hunting, the only shot that will matter is that first shot out of a cold gun.

However, I have taken a different approach here. Before hunting season I'll clean my guns and check to see if they're sighted in--firing several shots which now have the barrel fouled. I let them set for a day or so (I don't clean them). I take them out and shoot one shot from each rifle. If that shot is acceptable, I leave the gun the way it is (I don't clean it), and hunt with it. I won't clean it again until after hunting season, unless it gets wet.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Actually, I prefer Cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed and then dry patched barrel at ambient conditions. The reason for that is because that is the way theRifle is prepared when I Hunt. I'll never fling 5-shots at a Game animal, so it just doesn't interest me at all.

Just performed "shot #1" of the test. Barrels were pristine. Fired one shot at a 200 yard target for each of 2 rifles. Barrels are being cleaned now. I made a copy of the target and will note the conditons for shot #1 and each next shot.

I'm going to try to fire all of the shots with the same conditions, at least with respect to wind.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
All of these things in this test will show the true accuracy ability of your load and your equipment. ...

Actually, I prefer Cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed and then dry patched barrel at ambient conditions. The reason for that is because that is the way theRifle is prepared when I Hunt. I'll never fling 5-shots at a Game animal, so it just doesn't interest me at all.

I do every few years reverify that P-FLR is more accurate for "me" than Neck Sizing by shooting 18-shots or so of each type in a Blind Comparison Test. It generally takes an entire day to fire all of them and I shoot 3-shot groups when doing it just to save some time. And I clean between the 3-shot groups.
-----

That said, if a person is comfortable shooting a 100 shot group, that is what they should do. I'll even guess there will not even be any 1MOA 100-shot groups using the finest BenchRest equipment and techniques.

+1

Hunting rifles are not target rifles, unless one's hunting is more like target shooting than stalking, and so the first shot from the cold bore is the important one.

Note I said cold rather than cold and cold. It is in my experience bad juju to leave a loved rifle uncleaned after filing unless one must because it will only shoot heavily fouled. The latter is often, in my experience, caused by barrel pitting caused by not cleaning the rifle, or at least oiling the bore, for long periods.

I had this problem and got a lot of good advice about it on here, I use eezox in barrels that I can't clean and zero for a cold clean bore for the ones I can.

As far as target rifle goes, it might be easier to keep a score card for each range session and record fall of shot, conditions and sight adjustments. Saves buggering about with old targets.

Shot #2 was performed this a.m. with each rifle.

I'm beginning to get scared.

Several of my guns shoot 1/2 MOA all day long.....but they're quite private about it....they won't do it if someone else is there to see it!!

A few years ago, when I lived in a more remote place than I live now, the shooting range was basically a one-holer - one shooter at a time.

I arrived mid-afternoon, early fall day, and this old fart was teaching his grandson how to properly shoot and handle his 22 rifle. I sorta joined in and listened in. After a while the BS started flowing pretty much as usual from this artist. I listened and didn't argue - much.

After about an hour, he generously let me go ahead, since I explained that I only had six handloads with me to test. I was following up on some previous tests, just to confirm the load.

I set up my sand bags, got situated, which took longer that the actual shooting. Set up a paper target at 100 yds. The first three shots appeared though the scope to be touching, so I fetched the target. The group was less than the size of a quarter. So I showed him the target, said that it looks like I found the load. There was a lot of silence coming from him for a change. I left it at that and went home.

That was a rare occurance, but I sure did enjoy it. Obviously, that rifle is a ham, and likes to show off.

KB

For the first 20 year or so I spent loads of time and $$ trying to find a load that would allow my HUNTING rifle to shoot as tight a 5 shot group as possible. Then one day after a load of frustration(last times .6" group was 1.2") I asked myself when was the last time I shot 5 shots at a game animal. (varmint hunting excluded)

Now days I look for a load that will allow me to put 3 shots MOA or .75MOA if possible. However the most critical is that with a cold barrel (after a single dry patch) the POI is a repeat of the time before.

A tight group shot with a cold barrel each shot after fouling cleaning etc is nice to talk about but does nothing for me when hunting. Most critical is the faith that the bullet will be in the same point as last time and if need a quick 1 or 2 follow ups are as tight as possible.

In theory a light sporting barrel could shoot as tight a a heavy varmint if you find the perfect sweet spot. But that sweet spot load would likely not be the same at 90 & 35 degs. However the heavy will usually be more forgiving.

A .5" 5 shot group that repeats with a hunting rifle is rare and makes a good story for the campfire. Give me a rifle that will put the first and second bullet in the same point each and everytime and I'll leave the .5" and smaller groups to the BR boys.

I've got some results from my clean cold bore tests. I fired a total of 3 shots at the same target for each of two rifles. I fired one shot per day and cleaned the barrel before the next shot and next day.

I think this is a great test and has confirmed my thoughts on 2 of my rifles. It has also helped me make a decision on another to rid myself of it!

Top target is a factory barreled (take off) Remington 721 action 7mm RUM/160gr. AB/93.5gr. Retumbo...About a 2 MOA clean cold bore "group"

On the same page is a Factory Browning A-Bolt .300 Win/200gr Game King/74.5gr RL-25....A Sub MOA cumulative clean cold bore "group"




I now have great confidence in the load and the A-Bolt.
I kept shooting the 7 RUM today about 10 more shots thinking it may need fouling to group well. It didn't.

Either more load work or dump it.


I also confirmed what I already knew about my .243 wssm Factory A-Bolt...



This is one of the most accurate rifles I have even though it's factory. Honest 1/2" groups and the clean cold bore is the point of aim.



It took time to do this and maybe that's why most folks don't...

Now you're getting somewhere rc!

But unlike your infamous mentor HC, I believe you will get more consistant and smaller first shot groups when shot on consecutive days when shot from a properly cleaned and then properly fouled bore. IOW, clean the gun, shoot 4 or 5 foulers and then keep track of single shots on different days.

Let's face it, we take care of our guns and don't get dust or moisture inside our bores on hunting trips (at least I don't) and IMO a bore will stay good throughout the hunting season as long as you don't shoot a number of shots that is past the limit where you normally start to lose accuracy from the bore being too dirty. If I am out in a rain or feel like it is necessary, I will clean the bore after a hunting trip but will then foul it again prior to using it on another trip.

IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled.

Or am I just trying to start an argument with HC? Either way I'm good to go!

quote:

IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Now you're getting somewhere rc!

IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled.

Or am I just trying to start an argument with HC? Either way I'm good to go!

quote:

IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled.

I give my hunting rifles a good heavy cleaning MAYBE once a year. Normally I run a light oiled patch when I'm done shooting then a dry patch before I start shooting or head out hunting. I find the majority of my rifles group better that way.

Many years ago I had a 25-06 that I stocked and glass bedded that was used exclusively for ground hogs.
I found that Speer 100 grain hollow points were it's preferred bullet with a generous helping of H4831, CCI mag primer, Remington cases. It shot very tiny groups, sub 1 inch heading towards 1/2 inch, depending on how the shooter did his part.
I would work up a 'lot' of ammo from two boxes of bullets, same lot number. I would shoot this 'lot' until finished, then make another'lot' using the same cases.
With each 'lot' I'd fire five rounds to see if that 'lot' shot to same point of impact as the previous 'lot', adjust as required. If there was a change it was one or two clicks up or down.
I use the same technique for my 7.62 AR10t with one exception. I know that the AR10 will shoot the first shot, out of a clean cold bore, one inch high and to the left. If I fail to clean the barrel prior to putting the rifle away for a week or two, the rifle will shoot to point of impact it's sighted in for.
My loading technique is a bit more detailed now then I was loading for the 25-06, uniformed neck thickness, primer pocket uniformed, match bullets, same lot of primers, same lot of powder.
With the 25-06 I used two 20 pound sand bags, I couldn't afford a bench rest set up.
I've wondered if there's a difference in accuracy between sand bags vs bench rest.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled. ...

May not be.

But..., I don't have any stinkin FOULED Bores. Hunting with a Fouled Bore is as bad as going to see your Sweet-E-Pie with Skid Marks in your Skivies.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:


But..., I don't have any stinkin FOULED Bores. Hunting with a Fouled Bore is as bad as going to see your Sweet-E-Pie with Skid Marks in your Skivies.

I alwways wondered about the folks from the Carolinas.....LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

But..., I don't have any stinkin FOULED Bores. Hunting with a Fouled Bore is as bad as going to see your Sweet-E-Pie with Skid Marks in your Skivies.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled. ...

May not be.

But..., I don't have any stinkin FOULED Bores.

Have yourself some fun and make some. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled. ...

May not be.

But..., I don't have any stinkin FOULED Bores. Hunting with a Fouled Bore is as bad as going to see your Sweet-E-Pie with Skid Marks in your Skivies.

Hey HC, someone took a pic of you going out on your last date when you stopped by WalMart for some air freshener



You should use some Butch's Bore Shine on that bud!!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
IME a freshly cleaned barrel is not as consistant as a bore that is properly fouled. ...

May not be.

But..., I don't have any stinkin FOULED Bores. Hunting with a Fouled Bore is as bad as going to see your Sweet-E-Pie with Skid Marks in your Skivies.

Hey HC, someone took a pic of you going out on your last date when you stopped by WalMart for some air freshener



You should use some Butch's Bore Shine on that bud!!

woods!

How dare you show up here and "poop" on MY thread!

LOL!

Teflon products should not be used for barrel cleaning, if you want the 1st shot to go when it should. Store (short term) the rifle with 3&1 oil, before shooting,clean with #9, patch dry bore and chamber. Break Free CLP & Rem OIl are best used for long term storage.

How in the world do you manage to come up with these flicks?
-----

Great idea Bartsche, I just need to wait for the Blizzard to subside, the accumulation to melt and the Dandy Lions to appear. Gettin toooooo for this kind of miserable weather.