Hallow Gentlemen:

I posted this on the double rifle site before I remembered the existence of this site.

I just finished dressing up my other Baikal 30-06 double rifle, after having to put off the project for a little over a year because of my open heart surgery. Among the many things I did to this rifle, I rechambered it to the 30R Blazer using a bran new PTG finish reamer.
All went well the chambers are perfectly cut, no wobble no variation between barrels. Brand new RWS bras chambered precisely and slid in and out of chambers with ease as they suppose to do etc.

I bought some RWS once fired brass from a reputable gentleman here on AR a while back.

My problem is this: when I tried to use this brass I checked out few pieces and found out that they were a bit over sized at the web. They varied between .478" to .480", they will not fit in the Chambers of the rifle. I figured these were shot in a loose double rifle chambers and if I size them down, I might be able to Squeeze them back to normal Size again.


I did just that using a new CH4D sizing dies I sized few pieces that brought them down to .478", that is all that I could squeeze them to (sizing die turned all the way down touching the ramming rod). Those seemed to still chamber with a little difficulty requiring that I force the last few thousands in with my thumb. I thought with firing these rounds they will fire form to the shape of the chambers and they will be ok, some thing I can live with. I sized and reloaded a bunch to 30-06 (bellow the maximum load requirement). Again those cartridges seemed to fit ok just the last few thousand needed a little bit of a hard push with my thump to go all the way in ( that was done with a bullet or with out one in the cartridge).

Yesterday was my first outing with the rifle and brass at the range. I wanted to try out the rifle, also the brass because I was concerned about it.

Shot a total of 8 rounds and had to quit because the brass will get stuck in the rifle. I had to use the cleaning rod to force it out after the ejectors chewed up the rim on one cartridge. Again I was using bellow the max load for the 30-06 (a low pressure load).

I admit that I should have used the new RWS brass rather than the once fired. I was thinking of using the once fired brass for load development and practice, etc and saving the new for hunting loads.

I figured out I will check with those experienced reloaders who know and have been around reloading for a long time, especially for double rifles,. What can be done with this brass and is it still usable or it has been stretched out beyond remedy, before I go ahead and pull the bullets out of the rest of the loaded ammo.


Thanks for your impute.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

When you rechambered the barrels did you polish the chambers?
I am assuming you rechambered the rifle by hand.

A little bit of polishing of the rear half of the chambers might help your brass.

You might improve squeezing operation with your current dies by sizing your brass, retract it from the die about 1/2", spin the case about 120 degrees and size again, then repeat again. Let the case dwell at the top of the stroke 3 to 5 seconds to allow the brass time to creep.
You could even repeat this 8 or 10 times for a case then try it.

However if it still sticks you may have a rough chamber problem. You can try a few of your new cases. If they stick it is not the brass, it is the chamber finish.


To squeeze the base down you might find a steel .45 ACP sizer.

There are some other dies that might work but you would have to cut the top off so you do not reform your brass while squeezing the base.

Hello SR4759:

Thanks for your impute, Yes I did cut the chambers by hand using a new finish reamer. when I finished the cutting I rotated the reamer a dozen or more times with out pushing or allowing it to cut much at all in order to polish the chambers or so I thought.


My new brass fits beautifully, slides in and out with out any problems but that is not loaded or fired. I am going to load some rounds using the new brass and check it out the next time on the range and see how it will perform before I touch the chambers.

If the problem persists, then it is a rough chamber as you suggested. I can then use lapping compound I had bought from Veral Smith a long time ago if it is still good to polish the chambers. I never did polish a chamber before, have done it on bullet molds, any special tips?

My main concern is the brass. is it going to be weakened and hardened with that much sizing and would not that shorten its life and elasticity?



Best regards.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

When you are squeezing down the brass just a few thousandths you are not working it much - even when you repeat the sizing. All the last sizing cycles do is move the brass part of a thousandth. When the brass is expanded by firing and reduced by sizing you get much more cold working.

If you are not familiar with polishing chambers that job should be done by someone that has already learned the skill since it is all technique and experience.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
My main concern is the brass. is it going to be weakened and hardened with that much sizing and would not that shorten its life and elasticity?

Hello SR4759:

I tried the method you suggested, it did not seem to work, it slightly improved but still no go.

I did follow your recommendation, I did measure few cases after resizing them, they measured .478".
The new RWS cases, at the web 2.27" from the rim (that's the point where the sizing die stopped sizing the cases any more), they measured .475", That is a .003 difference. Also I measured few cases form the once fired brass just in front of the rim, they measured .476" and .477", verses .476" for the new brass, that is a .001 larger that means some of the cases has been stretched almost .001 where only.0005 is considered high pressure (I know it is debatable). evidently the factory loaded ammo is a bit hot.

It seems that I have couple of issues here.

- 1st The once fired brass have been stretched a bit much.

- 2nd the sizing die seems that it is not squeezing the brass smaller than .0478" which is not enough to allow the brass to chamber or extract easily.

- 3rd I need the 30R Blazer manufacture case dimensions specs and reloading data Some body here on AR gave me in the past the link to a site, I am not sure where it is.


Thanks again.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

Your chambers are simply too small for your reloading dies. Happens a lot. Make sure your shell holder is bumping up against the die real hard; I like a little cam over of the linkage. If you want the chambers to work with the dies you have, you will need to enlarge the chambers. Get a piece of wood dowel and slit one end with a saw; put some 220 emory paper in it and spin it with a drill for a few seconds in your chambers. I didn't know you had heart surgery but I hope it worked.

If your die does not work some other die might.
It might require a heavier press though.

If you want to check the dimensions down load a copy of the 30R Blaser drawings.

CIP 30R Blaser


I don't think there is any problem with your dies or your brass. I think your chambers are too small. Most chambers are .004 to .007 larger than the cartridges. To make it work I think your chambers will have the be polished a little.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Hello SR4759:

I tried the method you suggested, it did not seem to work, it slightly improved but still no go.

I did measure few cases after I did follow your recommendation and it measured .475, new RWS cases at the web 2.27" from the rim (that's the point where the sizing die is stopping to size down at), they measured .472, That is a .003 difference. also I measured few sized cases form the once fired brass just in front of the rim, they measured .4735 and .474, verses .473 for the new brass, that is a .001 larger that means some of the cases has been stretched almost .001 where only.0005 is considered high pressure (I know it is debatable). evidently the factory loaded ammo is a bit hot.

It seems that I have couple of issues here.

- 1st The once fired brass have been stretched too much.

- 2nd the sizing dies seems that they are not squeezing the brass smaller than .0475 which is not enough to allow the brass to chamber or extract easily.

- 3rd I need the 30R Blazer manufacture case dimensions specs and reloading data Some body here on AR gave me in the past the link to a site, I am not sure where it is.


Thanks again.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

The baikal double is made for low pressure cartrigdes like 3006 but 30r blaser is for higher pressure blaser/merkel double rifles.

Malek, I had the exact same experience with a 264Win. Cases previously fired in a different rifle would not chamber in it no matter how aggressively I re-sized them. Just use new brass and you will be good to go. There is nothing wrong with your rifles chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
- 3rd I need the 30R Blazer manufacture case dimensions specs and reloading data Some body here on AR gave me in the past the link to a site, I am not sure where it is.

Hi Malek. The cartridge dimensions can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_R_Blaser

LOW PRESSURE ...LIKE 30-06???? They both operate at the same pressure levels. About 60K PSI. So there goes that theory.
His problem is simple, common, and easy to fix.

There is no magic with resizing brass.
If you resize it enough it will fit.
If your die is too large at the base it cannot reduce the case enough to fit. That is very common especially with belted magnums.

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
Malek, I had the exact same experience with a 264Win. Cases previously fired in a different rifle would not chamber in it no matter how aggressively I re-sized them. Just use new brass and you will be good to go. There is nothing wrong with your rifles chamber.

Try a Small Base Resize die, commonly used to resize for gas guns. I believe RCBS makes them in 30-06.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Your chambers are simply too small for your reloading dies. Happens a lot. Make sure your shell holder is bumping up against the die real hard; I like a little cam over of the linkage. If you want the chambers to work with the dies you have, you will need to enlarge the chambers. Get a piece of wood dowel and slit one end with a saw; put some 220 emory paper in it and spin it with a drill for a few seconds in your chambers. I didn't know you had heart surgery but I hope it worked.

Hello dpcd:

Thank you for the sentiment, all is working well, Thank God.

To polish the chambers does the wooden dowel with the emory paper on, need to be snug in the chamber and can you do it with finer paper say 300?

After remeasuring every thing and compering the numbers with the CIP I must concur with you that the chambers on my rifle are cut a bit too small at .478" verses the CIP minimum chamber specs which are .4815" that is .0035" larger than my chambers.


Thanks again.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

Gentlemen; thank you all for your input, I double checked my calibration on my caliper and found it a little off, I recalibrated it and remeasured every thing and corrected all the previous measurements. Here are the corrections and conclusions:

I did measure few cases after resizing them, they measured .478".
The new RWS cases, at the web, 2.27" from the rim (that's the point where the sizing die stopped sizing the cases any more), they measured .475", That is a .003 difference. Also I measured few cases form the once fired brass just in front of the rim, they measured .476" and .477", verses .476" for the new brass, that is a .001 larger that means some of the cases has been stretched almost .001 where only.0005 is considered high pressure (I know it is debatable). evidently the factory loaded ammo is a bit hot.

It seems that I have couple of issues here.

- 1st The once fired brass have been stretched a bit much just infront the rim.

- 2nd the sizing die seems that it is not squeezing the brass smaller than .0478" which is not enough to allow the brass to chamber or extract easily.

- 3rd After compering the numbers with the CIP I must concur with some of you who stated that the chambers on my rifle are cut a bit too small at .478" verses the CIP minimum chamber specs which are .4815" that is .0035" larger than my chambers which meant that the reamer is a bit too small.


God bless.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

Yes you can use 320 grit but it won't remove much metal and will take longer to remove the amount you need. (Looks like about .003 total, which is .0015 per side) Yes, snug in the chamber; I use wd-40 as well on the paper. You do not want a perfectly smooth highly polished chamber; they, like engine bores, need to be a bit textured so the brass can grab it.
Small base dies; NO. Those things are solutions to non-problems.

You normally need a micrometer to make confident measurements of .001 to .0005 or less.

If you purchased the reamer from PTG you might ask them to replace it with a reamer that meets CIP specifications and your specifications.

I would check any CIP or SAAMI specifications before ordering a reamer. I have found errors in both systems - more errors in CIP than in SAAMI.

quote:

that is a .001 larger that means some of the cases has been stretched almost .001 where only.0005 is considered high pressure (I know it is debatable). evidently the factory loaded ammo is a bit hot.

Don't confuse stretching (radially) usually called expansion, with brass dimensions that increase due to large chambers. When that method is used to compare pressures, it must be done in the same chamber; usually with factory rounds against your re-loads.
As for PTG replacing the reamer, I am sure they will say no if it meets their drawing. Which I am sure it does, based on the 30 or so PTG reamers I own. If you want them to custom grind a reamer, well, those cost $160.

If PTG offers a reamer with the 30R Blaser name and it does not meet the industry standards PTG is not doing themselves any favors. I would certainly send the POS back.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Don't confuse stretching (radially) usually called expansion, with brass dimensions that increase due to large chambers. When that method is used to compare pressures, it must be done in the same chamber; usually with factory rounds against your re-loads.
As for PTG replacing the reamer, I am sure they will say no if it meets their drawing. Which I am sure it does, based on the 30 or so PTG reamers I own. If you want them to custom grind a reamer, well, those cost $160.

Easy to find out; ask them for a reamer print.

dpcd:

you are right I will try to go with the 220 grit, also will minimize back/bolt thrust.

As for the expantion you are right it could be just the brass stretching because of loose chambers. but I cant rule out the motion that high pressure might be also involved here even though other signs are not present (flattened primers).


SR4759:

you are right regarding the use of the micrometer mine has a flat surface at the points of contacts or what ever you call them. that will not prevented it from reaching the brass infront the rim because the bulge at the web . So I had to use the caliper which gave me a very close reading within reason.

As for PTG, I am positive that the reamer is smaller than the CIP cartridge specs and as dpcd suggested I am going to ask them for their 30R speck and reamer prints and take it from there.


I guess the next course of action will be is to load about 10 rounds of the new brass and start below max and work my way up to max head out to the range and see what will happen.


Thanks again.


Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best

Malek,

Did you ever contact PTG about this reamer being too small?

Tyler